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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#321

Post by whatshisface »

jcoffland wrote: post #216
whatshisface wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw them out. Although we all agree that this is legal to do (and nobody is thinking about taking Patreon to court), there is a second, more subtle social issue at play. Taking it to the extreme, if you live in a company town earning company scrip to spend at the company store, when the company decides that they don't like what you're…

But that is ultimately a problem of monopolization.

Peterson, Sam Harris and whoever else is involved would probably agree with you, they are now talking about setting up a competitor to Patreon. These people are real financial heavyweights and could probably do it.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#322

Post by fzeroracer »

orthecreedence wrote: post #58
pavel_lishin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? Keep in mind that some of those viewpoints are "we live, others get eradicated".

I wrote my post with complete awareness of the fact that neo-nazis, and others like them, exist. I don't really see what your comment adds to the discussion. Yes, some of the ideas are objectively bad. That doesn't mean there isn't a growing censorship movement, which incidentally often uses "nazi" lingo as an excuse to selectively silence people. Also note that I gave a nod to, and firmly believe in, not inciting vi…

Have you considered that we see the growing use of Nazi lingo because the amount of violence being committed by neo-nazis is rising?

You can say 'believe whatever you want', but what we've clearly seen is that belief turning into action. This in turn is why platforms are taking action against them.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#323

Post by KozmoNau7 »

ptero wrote: post #204
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

Trying to prevent people from arguing for an evil (E) never stops E long term. It should be fought with reason and counter-arguments, not with silencing the speaker. Suppressing the speaker can indicate, especially to those wavering, that there are no reasonable counter-arguments and there must be something true in the message that controlling powers are trying to suppress. There are different modes: I do not have to…

>"Trying to prevent people from arguing for an evil (E) never stops E long term. It should be fought with reason and counter-arguments, not with silencing the speaker. Suppressing the speaker can indicate, especially to those wavering, that there are no reasonable counter-arguments and there must be something true in the message that controlling powers are trying to suppress."

This "marketplace of ideas" and the idea that fascism can be argued away is demonstrably not working. Trying to engage a True Believer in debate simply lets them use the exposure to spread their ideology, they and their adherents simply feed on the controversy.

That's why a large segment of the alt-right run around daring people to "debate" them, because they know all exposure is good exposure, when it comes to the segment they're targeting.

By debating fascists, you implicitly give credence to the notion that their ideology is valid and worthy of civil discourse, when it is in fact the direct opposite of free speech and freedom for all.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#324

Post by eeZah7Ux »

jstarfish wrote: post #223
40acres wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Centralization isn't the problem here, if you look back at history there are more platforms for people to speak their mind than ever before. Before you the internet you had to deal with the three major networks to get on TV and most exterme speech, on either end of the spectrum, was relegated to the fringes. There has always been a realm of discourse that society agrees upon and that we use to set the boundaries of c…

> Centralization isn't the problem here, if you look back at history there are more platforms for people to speak their mind than ever before. But there aren't. It's an illusion of diversity. They're all owned or being bought up by the same centralized handful of outfits-turned-conglomerates that have always controlled the means of distribution. Haven't you noticed the flurry of mergers (successful or not) in the las…

> But there aren't. It's an illusion of diversity.

Indeed. A good example is how much trouble Snowden had in finding newspapers willing to publish him. Same goes for Wikileaks.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#326

Post by snerbles »

lykr0n wrote: post #104
losvedir wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or Visa likewise today -- it's understood that other people will use the same plastic to pay for things you morally disapprove of, just as they could use cash. But it's positioned as a neutral carrier, and nobody cares (I think). Heh, well I hope so. But that recent NYTimes story[0] about how mass shootings used guns and ammo bought with a credit card makes me unsure about that. I'd have thought using cash vs credi…

The takeaway from that article I got was that companies are handing out credit to anybody who wants it- and some people take advantage of that when they want to go out with a bang. Hellfire would rain down on any Network (Visa, MC, Amex, Discover) who thought about refusing to process firearm purchases. The NRA, any republican, and liberals like myself who support fundamental rights would be rightly pissed that a har…

This is already starting to happen. Where's the hellfire?

https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-payment-gu...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/business/banks-gun-sales....

https://nypost.com/2018/06/11/gun-businesses-scrambling-afte...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-credit-card-companie...

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#327

Post by username90 »

TheDong wrote: post #264
cabalamat wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The societal norms are shifting to a place where there are certain topics that are not allowed to be discussed at all even if looking at them from a critical lens. Patreon want to prevent the expression of certain thoughts. For example, they are against "negative generalizations, of people based on their race". However, negative generalisations are sometimes true. For example the homicide rate in Japan is much lowe…

> For example the homicide rate in Japan is much lower than in Jamaica; from this it follows that Jamaicans are on average more homicidal than Japanese. That's a negative generalisation. It's also true. That is not true. The fact you presented might be true, but the statement that "Jamaicans are on average more homicidal than Japanese" is not identical to the fact about homicide rates. Your statement implies that tho…

> Your statement implies that those two groups of people are somehow differing in temperament such that one has more violent tendencies than the other.

I don't buy that, today many say things like "Men are on average more prone to violence than women" without intending it in an essentialist way. So then why would "Jamaicans are on average more prone to violence than Japanese" have to be essentialist?

The interesting part is that few people take the same stance on both of these statements, people thinking the first is fine rarely accepts the second and vice versa. Seems like this argument is more about each side shutting down ideas they are uncomfortable with.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#328

Post by cabalamat »

bilbo0s wrote: post #288
cabalamat wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that isn't the line, the line is don't be Sargon of Akkad.

OK with that line too. Guy's a douche.

And what about when the line is you? Will that also be OK?

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak for me.

-- Martin Niemoeller

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#329

Post by joshuamorton »

bilbo0s wrote: post #196
magduf wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have an unpopular opinion. I believe people should be able to fly nazi and confederate flags on their private property. (Even if their private property overlooks yours.) I believe football players should be able to kneel during the national anthem. No, you have two totally different opinions here. Football players are not private individuals on their own private land. They're basically employees of a sort, so they…

But most football players are obviously not working for such an organization. And they are taking these actions on private property . Now, if a guy or gal is invited to perform on a military base during a national holiday commemoration, then sure, they should be compelled not to kneel. But if we're talking about things happening on private property as a part of a private gathering, those people can do whatever they p…

You're misunderstanding what GP is saying.

A performer on a military base is constitutionally protected from punishment for kneeling during the national anthem, because that base is public and they're acting as a citizen. A member of the military may have other requirements, I'm not really sure.

A professional (as opposed to high school or college, where this argument doesn't work) football player is playing on private property in the employ of a private citizen. That citizen could (and does) have the right to fine their employee for kneeling during the anthem. This isn't true for HS or college players who, by and large, are not acting under a private citizen owner, but are normally playing under the purview of a publicly funded school.

To put it succinctly:

>And they are taking these actions on private property.

Yes, and that private property is someone else's (in this case regulated by the NFL) who can set rules as they see fit.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#330

Post by apostacy »

magduf wrote: post #161
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

>Then you see counter-arguments, like "well if you don't want to get banned, don't say bad things!" But then, who decides what's bad? That's easy: whoever owns the platform. If I own the platform, Daily Stormer isn't going to be using it. I don't want to be associated with those morons, so I'm not going to do business with them. If it's my platform and my business, I have every right to refuse to do business with tho…

> If you feel that way, you have every right to set up your own platform and allow those people access to it. But if you're giving access to literal Nazis, I also have the right to shun you, which I will. If you want to willingly associate with that type of scum, then I'm going to assume that you're cut from the same cloth.

Who gets to decide what a "nazi" is? You? What if I say you're a nazi? Your denials just make you more guilty. That's exactly what a nazi would say, nazi.

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