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I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

triplebyte.com

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Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#321

Post by canthonytucci »

sdegutis wrote: post #235
Retra wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are a team, but you should still attempt to be objective enough in your evaluation to determine whether a new person will allow you to be a functional team. But when you say "culture fit", the implication is that the team would prefer not to change at all, not that it would accept changing into a different-yet-comparably-productive team.

Maybe I used culture fit the wrong way. I just meant the ability to get along in non-trivial situations and communicate effectively. I've met people who I have so little in common with that we couldn't even share a joke in either direction, because the recipient just couldn't understand it at all. It was so difficult to accomplish even basic things because our experiences were so different that we didn't have common…

> It was so difficult to accomplish even basic things because our experiences were so different that we didn't have common ground to work from.

I am curious what kind of work this was, if you can share.

I had a lot of difficulty in the past when working in situations where there was "life-experience" context to the problem space that was not shared by the whole team.

But we had to get the job done so we worked around it.

I think in the end the need to be more explicit, to provide more context and to work towards abstract descriptions of problems was also a positive.

When life gives you lemons and all that.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#322

Post by dunpeal »

0xfeba wrote: post #296
irq11 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”Why are "juniors" interviewing candidates?” I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but the average age of programmers these days is just slightly above “right out of undergrad”. If you wait for the senior people to interview everyone, you’re going to be waiting a while. ”Coding questions are among the most quantifiable and objective questions there are.” Bullshit. Coding questions feel objective, and programmers love…

This topic was pretty lively last time I commented about my interviewing practices. Coding is a creative effort -- yes. It's not objective. But I see no other way to test if the person is competent than sitting them down with a problem to solve -- if only to have them explain what they do and don't understand, and what their process is.

This is a key point. I see a lot of criticism of the coding interview. But what's the viable alternative?

My goal is to figure out the candidate can do their job - write software - and that myself and the rest of my team would enjoy working closely with them on their daily tasks.

How else do I figure that out, if not by a coding exercise?

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#323

Post by fogetti »

btilly wrote: post #141

I believe that the article is fundamentally wrong. The bulk of the article is true. But companies are not lying when they say that legal risk is a reason not to send feedback. Triplebyte is in the unusual position of being able to say, "Everyone who has enough technical skill gets through the interview." And that fact is sufficient to defuse their risk. But real companies don't have the luxury of ignoring non-technic…

I am wondering why are the technical interviews are put before the personal interviews then? If none of the technical skills matter in light of the soft skills because some candidate has a hair color or accent which bothers a team member, why bother with checking technicality in the first place?

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#324

Post by mgkimsal »

jldugger wrote: post #287
mgkimsal wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be confused - it's not racist. It's "accentist" perhaps. I'm "white" and there've been plenty of "white" folks who I can't understand due to their accent. In some cases, I would not be able to work with them. It was nothing to do with 'race', everything to do with their ability to communicate in a way I could understand. If there are two people of equal technical ability, and one I (and the team) can understand…

Fortunately, EEOC considers national origin equally important to protect, and 'accentist' is likely adjacent enough that your lawyers will not support you going there.

Someone from deep rural alabama vs someone from illinois - they're both from the same country. both 'white', both have same qualifications. one has a deep accent that is hard to understand, one doesn't. Please define how making a decision based on accent would be 'racist' (by any EEOC definition).

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#325

Post by [deleted] »

slg wrote: post #258
wildmusings wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the point of legal risk, I’m concerned by the authors naïveté in believing that as long as you’re not actually discriminating based on race/sex/religion, you won’t be accused of it. The more data you put out there, the more likely that someone will crunch it and find some statistical patterns that they will label “racism” or "sexism". Even if you’re innocent, you will get dragged through the mud in the press and m…

>the more likely that someone will crunch it and find some statistical patterns that they will label “racism” or "sexism". Even if you’re innocent The existence of that pattern by itself might be enough for a company to be guilty of discrimination. If a policy disproportionately harms a specific protected class and they can't show a legitimate business reason for that policy, it is illegal regardless of intent. It is…

[deleted]

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#326

Post by x0x0 »

bglazer wrote: post #306
bsder wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can't code because you are looking figuratively over their shoulder---the clock is ticking next to a hundred grand in a suitcase. There is a difference between me asking you how to optimize a graph algorithm (good luck--I probably couldn't do that on the fly with references in front of me) vs giving me a basic FizzBuzz. If I let you pick your language for your FizzBuzz, you need to demonstrate at least some of…

To be totally honest, I always find these stats about some x% > 50% failure to program at all totally unbelievable. What do these people do all day, if not design and build software? Yet they're apparently completely unable to write code? How is that possible? I understand that there is always a certain amount of slack and underperformance but any workforce would be completely paralyzed by 70% completely incompetent…

It's not a big chunk of employees, it's a big chunk of applicants. Because the least competent apply to a lot more jobs.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#327

Post by wildmusings »

slg wrote: post #258
wildmusings wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the point of legal risk, I’m concerned by the authors naïveté in believing that as long as you’re not actually discriminating based on race/sex/religion, you won’t be accused of it. The more data you put out there, the more likely that someone will crunch it and find some statistical patterns that they will label “racism” or "sexism". Even if you’re innocent, you will get dragged through the mud in the press and m…

>the more likely that someone will crunch it and find some statistical patterns that they will label “racism” or "sexism". Even if you’re innocent The existence of that pattern by itself might be enough for a company to be guilty of discrimination. If a policy disproportionately harms a specific protected class and they can't show a legitimate business reason for that policy, it is illegal regardless of intent. It is…

Good point about the disparate impact doctrine. More reason to say as little as possible about your hiring decisions. Why would anyone willingly subject themselves to that kind of scrutiny?

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#328

Post by mixmastamyk »

taneq wrote: post #311
mixmastamyk wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't code because you are looking figuratively over their shoulder---the clock is ticking next to a hundred grand in a suitcase. A single question is pulled from subjects vast enough to fill up years of college and there is no time to research, as one would in the real world. Binary pass/fail with your pride/livelyhood/family on the line. Please state your last exam conducted under such conditions? Oh and your…

We always get these kinds of responses when interview testing is mentioned. This isn't some high-level algorithm analysis on a whiteboard with a panel of examiners grilling you. This is a simple test of basic competence. It's like interviewing a candidate Formula 1 driver and asking them "so which bit's the brake pedal?" If they can't tell you that instantly then they shouldn't be applying for the position in the fir…

> We always get these kinds of responses…

Perhaps you should start listening.

> This isn't some high-level algorithm analysis on a whiteboard with a panel of examiners grilling you.

Happened to me just three months ago. The req is still open, wonder why?

To reiterate:

- Exams have a topic known in advance.

- Exams never have a person sitting there waiting for the answer.

- Exams are never 1 or 2 questions binary pass/fail with incredibly high stakes in unfamiliar territory.

Which is the brake pedal? If only.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#329

Post by [deleted] »

will4274 wrote: post #308
wildmusings wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the point of legal risk, I’m concerned by the authors naïveté in believing that as long as you’re not actually discriminating based on race/sex/religion, you won’t be accused of it. The more data you put out there, the more likely that someone will crunch it and find some statistical patterns that they will label “racism” or "sexism". Even if you’re innocent, you will get dragged through the mud in the press and m…

My friend works for a large consulting company (you've heard of them). They were hired by a client who needed to reduce their labor costs by 10-15% (read: fire people) because they were hemorrhaging money. The team of consultants asked to NOT be given any performance data - and recommended that the consulting team handle the layoffs and fire randomly - this immunized the client from any discrimination lawsuits and wa…

[deleted]

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#330

Post by mixmastamyk »

bglazer wrote: post #306
bsder wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can't code because you are looking figuratively over their shoulder---the clock is ticking next to a hundred grand in a suitcase. There is a difference between me asking you how to optimize a graph algorithm (good luck--I probably couldn't do that on the fly with references in front of me) vs giving me a basic FizzBuzz. If I let you pick your language for your FizzBuzz, you need to demonstrate at least some of…

To be totally honest, I always find these stats about some x% > 50% failure to program at all totally unbelievable. What do these people do all day, if not design and build software? Yet they're apparently completely unable to write code? How is that possible? I understand that there is always a certain amount of slack and underperformance but any workforce would be completely paralyzed by 70% completely incompetent…

"The emperor has no clothes."

It's because current tech interviews are a complete failure and none will admit it. In ten years you'll hear a new fashion and today's will be decried a failure.

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