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Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

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Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#321

Post by qaq »

Piskvorrr wrote: post #320
qaq wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Break the law? One surprising thing to me there is a ton of media attention on the SV right now (almost all negative) and that does not look like a coincidence. I disapprove of what FB is doing but on the scale of problems that Big Pharma, Health Insurance, big banks are causing thats not even a blip and yet most media attention and good amount of public outrage is fairly skillfully directed toward tech and SV.

Or perhaps that SV is vocal , excessively so: promises miracles, yesterday, at will, almost for free. In other words, massively overpromises, then underdelivers - that amounts to painting a huge sign "KICK ME" on its collective butt. While other enterprises might do that as well, even to a criminal extent, they do not brag about it. This might be all the explanation that's needed, no conspiracy necessary.

What miracles was FB promising? (Again not a fan of FB).

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#322

Post by fsloth »

ccalf wrote: post #309
emiliobumachar wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of human-driven car accident victims have done nothing wrong at all. Almost every driver thinks they're better than average. Even when it's a stupid person dying from their stupidity, it's still a tragedy. I really think data driven analysys is the way to go. If we can get US car fatalities from 30000 a year to 29000 a year by adopting self-driving cars, that's 1000 lives saved a year. Agree with your point #3.…

OK but if by saving 1000 lives a year required as a side-effect that you personally be among the fatalities, would that be OK for you? I hope not. Think of this as a technical corner case; so, the question is the soundness of the analysis—for example, the distribution of deaths and what that means for safety—and not letting various facile logic get in the way of that work.

That's not really a very good argument. If you change parameters in a complex system then the odds are that you are going to find pathologies in new places.

People claim seatbelts have caused lots of deaths, and I'm sure at least a percentage of these claims are fair ([0]). I still think it's safer to drive a car with a seatbelt rather than without.

[0] http://www.againstseatbeltcompulsion.org/victims.htm

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#324

Post by emiliobumachar »

ccalf wrote: post #309
emiliobumachar wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of human-driven car accident victims have done nothing wrong at all. Almost every driver thinks they're better than average. Even when it's a stupid person dying from their stupidity, it's still a tragedy. I really think data driven analysys is the way to go. If we can get US car fatalities from 30000 a year to 29000 a year by adopting self-driving cars, that's 1000 lives saved a year. Agree with your point #3.…

OK but if by saving 1000 lives a year required as a side-effect that you personally be among the fatalities, would that be OK for you? I hope not. Think of this as a technical corner case; so, the question is the soundness of the analysis—for example, the distribution of deaths and what that means for safety—and not letting various facile logic get in the way of that work.

The downside of a laissez-faire policy towards self-driving cars could fall on anyone, but so does the upside. Again, a lot of human driven car crash victims have done nothing wrong and were victimized pretty much at random. Run over, rear-ended, T-crashed at an intersection, and could not reasonably have done anything to prevent it.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#325

Post by icc97 »

martin_bech wrote: post #268
icc97 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the moment Tesla haven't shown that auto-pilot does lower the death rate. They've only released statistics about auto-pilot enabled cars rather than statistics for when auto-pilot was in control. Any statistics released by Tesla should be compared against similar statistics from say modern Audis with lane-assist and collision detection.

Thats because all autopilot enabled cars, have the safety part enabled by default. Automatic Emergency Brakeing. Side collision avoidance, Lane detection etc.

Those systems are the great ones at the moment. But almost all modern cars have those.

They're brilliant because they augment humans by leaving humans to do all the driving and staying focused on that but then taking over when the driver gets distracted and is about to hit something.

Auto-pilot does it the opposite way round. It does the driving but not as well as the human but then the human can't stay as alert as the car so isn't ready to take over.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#326

Post by ilovecars2 »

Vik1ng wrote: post #299
teppix wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statistics also includes all the cases where drivers are not paying attention as they should, and it's still safer than the average car (at least according to Tesla).

I bet Tesla's are still safer without Autosteer, because the average car includes a lot of old cars and more young drivers.

What is the catchment range for new (inexperienced) drivers? 18-25? There are a lot of people who have been driving for a long time who are not good at driving at all and lack all kind of self awareness. For example, following the car in front too close.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#327

Post by Sumaso »

ccalf wrote: post #309
emiliobumachar wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of human-driven car accident victims have done nothing wrong at all. Almost every driver thinks they're better than average. Even when it's a stupid person dying from their stupidity, it's still a tragedy. I really think data driven analysys is the way to go. If we can get US car fatalities from 30000 a year to 29000 a year by adopting self-driving cars, that's 1000 lives saved a year. Agree with your point #3.…

OK but if by saving 1000 lives a year required as a side-effect that you personally be among the fatalities, would that be OK for you? I hope not. Think of this as a technical corner case; so, the question is the soundness of the analysis—for example, the distribution of deaths and what that means for safety—and not letting various facile logic get in the way of that work.

So you'd rather 1000 other people die, rather than yourself? What kind of logical exercise is this?

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#328

Post by seatotree »

ccalf wrote: post #309
emiliobumachar wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of human-driven car accident victims have done nothing wrong at all. Almost every driver thinks they're better than average. Even when it's a stupid person dying from their stupidity, it's still a tragedy. I really think data driven analysys is the way to go. If we can get US car fatalities from 30000 a year to 29000 a year by adopting self-driving cars, that's 1000 lives saved a year. Agree with your point #3.…

OK but if by saving 1000 lives a year required as a side-effect that you personally be among the fatalities, would that be OK for you? I hope not. Think of this as a technical corner case; so, the question is the soundness of the analysis—for example, the distribution of deaths and what that means for safety—and not letting various facile logic get in the way of that work.

There is a simple solution for this. If you think you are an above average driver, don't use autopilot.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#329

Post by josefresco »

sschueller wrote: post #263
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not only did the vehicle system completely scrub the cabin air, but in the ensuing minutes, it began to vacuum the air outside the car as well, reducing PM2.5 levels by 40%. In other words, Bioweapon Defense Mode is not a marketing statement, it is real. You can literally survive a military grade bio attack by sitting in your car." https://www.tesla.com/blog/putting-tesla-hepa-filter-and-bio...

"extreme levels of pollution" is not the same as a bio-chemical weapon.

Can you expand on this and provide evidence to support your claim? I would imagine Telsa would have throughly vetted this statement however I'm curious to hear how bio-chemical weapons differ from extreme pollution (they do also mention viruses)

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#330

Post by Piskvorrr »

lozenge wrote: post #166
Animats wrote: post #163

Come to think of it, whatever happened to Tesla's self-driving effort? They claimed to be shipping Model 3 cars with all the hardware needed for self driving (not including a LIDAR). They produced videos. Most of this was 1-2 years ago. But they never got to deployment, or even to the point of demoing it for car magazine writers.

They had a falling out with their software supplier Mobileye which set them back a year or more.

Did I just read "they found out that tech is not actually ready to fulfill what its marketing promised", or is that something else?
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