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The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

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Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#321

Post by tom_mellior »

Danihan wrote: post #14
babaganoosh89 wrote: post #11

Doing some back of the envelope math, US gov revenue is 3.31 trillion and the population size is 323.1 million. Which leaves about $10244 per capita to play with. How would a BI work, give people $7k per year and save 3k for military and basic services? Seems like BI would need big tax increases to become viable.

The math doesn't work and has never worked. UBI proponents will never talk math because it doesn't add up, even with the most casual analysis. $12k is the cited number that you see a lot in basic income discussions. That's just over the poverty level. That's not enough to live on and it's practically a bonus for some members of this site. It's not enough to do anything with. Even upon receiving that, many people woul…

> $12k is the cited number that you see a lot in basic income discussions. That's just over the poverty level. That's not enough to live on

"just over the poverty level" is pretty much the definition of "enough to live on". If it isn't, the poverty level is set wrong.

Anyway, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... 22.77% of the people in the US age 15+ (12.5 million persons) had an annual income of $12.5k or less.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#322

Post by ramblerman »

tobbyb wrote: post #128

The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. If one's idea of human society is people working to earn money. Fullstop. And those who are better at it are the be all and end alls of human civilization and progress and the ultimate aspiration. Then words like lazy, people will not do anything, arguments that are generic enough to block any action, a…

I'm a proponent of UBI, but this Utopian kind of vision is naive at best.

The power of UBI is that it solves the immediate problem that many jobs will disappear, and with modern technology people shouldn't be starving. But it keeps the tried and tested incentive-based capitalism underneath.

Perhaps one day mankind will evolve to a utopian state, but in the intermediate to long term we absolutely are still capable of great selfishness, laziness, and ready to take any shortcut to advance our own goals.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#323

Post by gutnor »

akvadrako wrote: post #316
gutnor wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let people make their own decisions and don't try to be their caretakers. That's some harsh darwinism that seems to go against the principle of UBI. You are mentally unfit (young, ill, sick, depressed, ...) ? Here is some cash, good luck with the wolves.

> That's some harsh darwinism that seems to go against the principle of UBI. The principle of UBI is exactly that; give people some money with no strings or instructions and let them make their own decisions. If it's conditional, it's not universal.

For context of GP question was "How do we prevent creating the same inefficient welfare with UBI", to which parent said roughly "Don't care, just give everyone cash".

You can't just give a lump sum of money to a guy with down syndrome and hope he will figure out what he needs without some sort of external assistance, i.e. some sort of welfare program.

So either UBI is just the most cynical attempt at social darwinism and eugenics in a long time, or UBI needs to be complemented by something that looks very much like the current set of welfare program.

It is easy to see that UBI can somewhat easily be funded, however (UBI + welfare) is a completely different matter.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#324

Post by tonyedgecombe »

eanzenberg wrote: post #193
dahdum wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The other way is thinking of the billions of brains wasted every generation just trying to survive, exactly what humans did 2000 years ago. Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. That's a vision." It's not so cut and dry. I don't believe that incentives under UBI will lead to great…

I think the people who would agree with you are the ones who see this firsthand. The people who back UBI generally live in a bubble or see things from an ivory tower.

I'm not sure, there are a lot of perverse incentives in the welfare system in the UK, I assume they exist in the US as well. If you replace it with a system where the benefits don't disappear when you start work then there is more of an incentive to work.

The main problem I see is most people promoting it want to set it so high that the figures just don't add up.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#325

Post by tonyedgecombe »

eanzenberg wrote: post #188
tobbyb wrote: post #128

The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. If one's idea of human society is people working to earn money. Fullstop. And those who are better at it are the be all and end alls of human civilization and progress and the ultimate aspiration. Then words like lazy, people will not do anything, arguments that are generic enough to block any action, a…

No it's even more basic then that. There are two competing theories for humanity. One is, do you have faith in society and the peoples of that society? The other, do you not have faith in society and the peoples of it? Many of the human-made constructs in our world were defined as a stop-gap for the lowest depths of humanity. Certain people are extremely selfish, narcissistic, care only for themselves? We have some l…

Reality is never as black and white as that.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#326

Post by chesimov »

dahdum wrote: post #165
tobbyb wrote: post #128

The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. If one's idea of human society is people working to earn money. Fullstop. And those who are better at it are the be all and end alls of human civilization and progress and the ultimate aspiration. Then words like lazy, people will not do anything, arguments that are generic enough to block any action, a…

"The other way is thinking of the billions of brains wasted every generation just trying to survive, exactly what humans did 2000 years ago. Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. That's a vision." It's not so cut and dry. I don't believe that incentives under UBI will lead to great…

A friendly note: 'cut and dried'. As an aside are these kind of remarks welcomed or seen as pedantic?

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#327

Post by Mithaldu »

gaius wrote: post #307
firethief wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what guaranteed monthly checks does to ambition Do you think it's a coincidence that that check is only guaranteed in the absence of ambition? You've seen the perverse incentives of means-tested welfare, not the effects of a UBI.

The B is for basic. You won't starve or freeze, but if you want any luxuries then you will need to earn them. That's why UBI won't kill ambition. Contrast to welfare where if you earn anything the welfare is taken away.

"Basic" does not mean the same thing everywhere.

In Germany part of the basic rights granted by law is human dignity. Part of human dignity is participation in culture and society. As such the closest thing germany has to UBI includes a budget to permit participation in culture.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#328

Post by Mithaldu »

dgudkov wrote: post #254
tobbyb wrote: post #128

The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. If one's idea of human society is people working to earn money. Fullstop. And those who are better at it are the be all and end alls of human civilization and progress and the ultimate aspiration. Then words like lazy, people will not do anything, arguments that are generic enough to block any action, a…

>Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. This may sound cynical, but those who can actually deliver innovation, progress and intellectual output of a meaningful magnitude are already doing pretty well. To a big extent, because they can be determined and can work hard. Most people (my…

You have a very valid answer from pixelbill, who seems to be shadowbanned.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15919850

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#329

Post by apercu »

dahdum wrote: post #165
tobbyb wrote: post #128

The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. If one's idea of human society is people working to earn money. Fullstop. And those who are better at it are the be all and end alls of human civilization and progress and the ultimate aspiration. Then words like lazy, people will not do anything, arguments that are generic enough to block any action, a…

"The other way is thinking of the billions of brains wasted every generation just trying to survive, exactly what humans did 2000 years ago. Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. That's a vision." It's not so cut and dry. I don't believe that incentives under UBI will lead to great…

This might sound radical, but I've always thought it would make sense to bring back some of the programs from the New Deal as part of UBI. In the US and Canada, infrastructure is crumbling. As part of your UBI (if you can't or choose not to work) maybe people should spend a week a month working for the good of their society. It's not perfect but if there is a job skills/training component of these things, and exposure to people of all types it would be good for a lot of people.

Re: The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income

#330

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

stcredzero wrote: post #115
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem with taxing the wealthy, is that they generally have an outsized share of the political power. I think that a better solution, from a political and psychological standpoint, would involve a voluntary system. If just rent could be covered, this would be the equivalent of $12k per year in many parts of the US: By voluntary system you mean the wealthy voluntarily turning over the wealth that they won't let…

By voluntary system you mean the wealthy voluntarily turning over the wealth that they won't let us tax them for? It doesn't make sense. Many other cultures have a gift economy, where the powerful voluntarily redistribute their wealth in exchange for status. Culture is very powerful, often overpowering pure economics. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates have already pledged huge fractions of their wealth towards the common…

Yeah but there's no solution in your post. Culture can be powerful but we don't exist in the culture you want and I don't see a good way to get there. Hand waving about voluntarism and a culture shift isn't going to fix anything. Tax the shit out of the rich and make them pay for it.
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