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Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

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Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#321

Post by endorphone »

eridius wrote: post #145
lemagedurage wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple provides a black box with iOS, they have full control. Maybe the next iOS update comes with privacy intrusion because it's more lucrative. A more sensible way of dealing wirh the issue would be to use an open source Android version like AOSP or LineageOS, not run proprietary gapps, and replace its functionality with F-Droid, MicroG and Yalp-store. Your location will stay out of Apple's/Google's hands and you ca…

> Maybe the next iOS update comes with privacy intrusion because it's more lucrative. Apple has demonstrated time and time again their commitment to privacy and to protecting user data. Apple does not see user data as something to be hoarded. They see user data as a liability and work very hard to collect as little as possible in order to provide the services they do. The idea that Apple is going to discard all of th…

Apple has demonstrated time and time again their commitment to privacy and to protecting user data.

Google's entire business is carefully balanced on user trust. Anyone who posits some naive "they're an ad company" nonsense is just muddying the waters. Google is a user-trust company in a variety of spheres, and without that trust they would be annihilated.

Apple does not see user data as something to be hoarded

I've gotten downvoted elsewhere and will gladly eat it up to warn against this utterly ludicrous kool-aid fueled naivety. Apple says whatever nonsense gets a cheer at their latest product reveal. But if you don't think they're desperately vacuuming up data for their machine learning to stay ahead of the game, you should rethink your positions.

I remember virtually identical claims about Microsoft a decade ago, as an aside. Hell, in conversations about Google versus Microsoft, no less. Then Microsoft, you know, started viciously hoovering up user data like there's no tomorrow.

Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#322

Post by a_imho »

The section of Google’s privacy policy that covers location sharing says the company will collect location information from devices that use its services, but does not indicate whether it will collect data from Android devices when location services are disabled

So why isn't Google is slapped with a fine then?

Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#323

Post by AlphaSite »

andrepd wrote: post #306
JonFish85 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Apple provides a black box with iOS, they have full control. Maybe the next iOS update comes with privacy intrusion because it's more lucrative." This is true, but it's also potentially worthwhile to consider that Apple has positioned themselves as a hardware company (i.e. the majority of their money is based on selling units of hardware), whereas their main competitor here (Google) is an ad company (i.e. the majori…

That's smoke and mirrors. What guarantees you that Apple isn't collecting your location right now ? It's proprietary software, so you wouldn't know, and it's perfectly within the terms of their EULA. You're just gonna trust that they don't (even though they are a business and that can potentially make them more money)? Or are you gonna know your phone isn't spying in you by installing free software on your device?

OpenSSL proved to me that being open source doesn’t mean anyone actually checks what it’s doing. It could be checked, but it would be trivial to sneak in things.

Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#324

Post by ex3ndr »

maigret wrote: post #296
ehsankia wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the point. > Apple's are aligned with those that buy phones. For all we know, that's what they want you to believe. The fact that you are so certain this is how they are incentivized could just mean that they did a fantastic job at marketing and making their users believe this image of themselves they've worked on.

But do you have counter examples? Because here, we see one more from Google, while Apple has had a much better track record so far that confirms this view that they are walking the talk, too.

I feel that people mostly don't care to check the correctness of Apple's claims. Yesterday i asked a question about security (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15751571) and no one replied.

Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#325

Post by thanksgiving »

iirirjn888 wrote: post #19

I’ve always assumed location services = GPS Meaning you can still be triangulated by towers Which I had run legally for LEO at Sprint back in 2003-2005. Towers gotta know where you are to provide service. Don’t want to be tracked? Leave your phone at home. Not saying it’s ideal but it’s how technology works.

If I turn "airplane mode" on and you still track me, should you face a penalty?

Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#326

Post by spurcell93 »

literallycancer wrote: post #166
enraged_camel wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would having the iOS source code show you that Apple is selling data?

If Apple claims to care about protecting privacy, the onus is on them to prove that they actually do, e.g. by publishing the source code to show everyone that it doesn't collect anything. Otherwise, the assumption is that they do.

While I appreciate the sentiment that we should be distrustful of every large company that has our data, including apple, I take issue with the assertion that unless that publish their source code, they are selling our data.

Logically, apple has no reason to be selling our data in even close to the same way that google does. These arguments have been thoroughly outlined in the threads above. Furthermore, showing us the source code would not prove whether or not apple is selling our data, though it would certainly prove that they are collecting it. And even if they showed people their algorithms for differential privacy, you could always make the argument that they were hiding something.

Essentially it seems that there is no condition that would satisfy the criteria. It's obvious that we have to trust apple's word to some degree and that the relationship is asymmetrical. I've been convinced by the arguments about business model / risk outlined above. What hasn't convinced you?

Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#327

Post by mikehotel »

aoeusnth1 wrote: post #206
sjwright wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would they not? Because this sort of thing inevitably leaks? Apple has a formula that demonstrably works, a formula that everyone can directly observe making them an utterly stupid amount of money. It would be the height of stupidity to risk their unparalleled monetary successes to pursue a few dirty little crumbs.

Exactly - especially when you are employing privacy-conscious developers, it would be nearly impossible to keep it contained. Someone would leak it to the EFF. It's better business strategy for Apple to not defect.

Off topic

Saiya-jin, your comments all appear to be flagged and dead. You may want to contact a mod about this.

https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=saiya-jin

Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#328

Post by JustSomeNobody »

growse wrote: post #148
JonFish85 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Apple provides a black box with iOS, they have full control. Maybe the next iOS update comes with privacy intrusion because it's more lucrative." This is true, but it's also potentially worthwhile to consider that Apple has positioned themselves as a hardware company (i.e. the majority of their money is based on selling units of hardware), whereas their main competitor here (Google) is an ad company (i.e. the majori…

> This is true, but it's also potentially worthwhile to consider that Apple has positioned themselves as a hardware company (i.e. the majority of their money is based on selling units of hardware), whereas their main competitor here (Google) is an ad company (i.e. the majority of their money comes from selling their users' data). Apple has chosen to highlight their commitment to privacy partially because they feel it…

If Apple really is Hoovering up all our data, we'd hear about it. A disgruntled employee would tell all after they got fired or left.

Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#329

Post by omnius19 »

davohmy wrote: post #298
horsecaptin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But this is all just marketing, whereas the reality is that Apple could also be hoovering up location data and you may never know." It isn't just marketing. This is how the alignment of incentives works. A company's incentives are aligned with the people who pay them. Apple's are aligned with those that buy phones. Google and Facebook's are aligned with those that buy ads.

"A company's incentives are aligned with the people who pay them" That sounds great but it can not be further from the truth. So are you saying that Comcast and the telcos of the world incentives are aligned with their users?

Telcos in the US have localized monopolies. Their customers are a captive audience. The incentive in that situation is for the telcos to wring as much money out of its customers as possible since they have nowhere else to go. Apple is very far from a monopoly. It sells in highly competitive markets and as such, is incentivized to appeal to its customers so that those customers do not choose another option for their hardware purchases.

Re: Google collects cell tower info even if location services are disabled

#330

Post by JustSomeNobody »

endorphone wrote: post #321
eridius wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe the next iOS update comes with privacy intrusion because it's more lucrative. Apple has demonstrated time and time again their commitment to privacy and to protecting user data. Apple does not see user data as something to be hoarded. They see user data as a liability and work very hard to collect as little as possible in order to provide the services they do. The idea that Apple is going to discard all of th…

Apple has demonstrated time and time again their commitment to privacy and to protecting user data. Google's entire business is carefully balanced on user trust. Anyone who posits some naive "they're an ad company" nonsense is just muddying the waters. Google is a user-trust company in a variety of spheres, and without that trust they would be annihilated. Apple does not see user data as something to be hoarded I've…

Siri is so far behind Amazon and Google's voice assistants that if they're Hoovering up the datas, they're doing it wrong.

I'm a (mostly) happy [0] Apple customer. The lack of evidence that they are gathering all my bits makes me comfortable to use their products. I strongly feel we'd hear leaks about how they are saying one thing and doing another if they were. Employees of Apple aren't that loyal.

Yet here we are with Google and their "it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission" attitude.

[0] iOS 11 is bad. Just bad.

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