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There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

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Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#321

Post by jhasse »

pksadiq wrote: post #307
amelius wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one reason I'm still hoping for a Linux/Firefox phone.

> That's one reason I'm still hoping for a Linux/Firefox phone. You should rather hope for GNU/Linux phones. Linux devices (without the GNU part) is most of the time, just another locked device (see your Android phone, router, TV, etc). The presence of GNU software pieces (or any software licensed under GNU [LA]GPL v3+) ensures the device is free of locks (or with user breakable locks).

> The presence of GNU software pieces (or any software licensed under GNU [LA]GPL v3+) ensures the device is free of locks (or with user breakable locks).

That's not true, as the Linux kernel is still GPLv2. So while you could swap out the userspace GNU utils, the device manufacturer can still lock the bootloader which is perfectly fine with the GPLv2.

Even if the bootloader is unlockable (e.g. LG allows this btw), you will most likely be stuck to a specific kernel version due to proprietary binary blobs which nearly every phone uses.

So instead of a GNU/Linux phone, you should rather hope for a phone with complete open source drivers (or a GPLv3 kernel).

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#323

Post by briandear »

pjmlp wrote: post #262
spookthesunset wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its harsh because there is no way to sugar coat it. This post is full of people bragging about running 9 year old phones with ancient highly vulnerable operating systems. On the same forum that has people bragging about being child geniuses and making posts like “I’m assuming that just by reading HN you have an above average intelligence”. No. You don’t get to claim you are “above average intelligence” when you brag…

I am happy for you, that you can afford spending several hundred euros/dollars/yen/whatever every couple of years for OS updates. Majority of us have better things in life to use our money for.

However, a large number of people on HN are software engineers who make their living writing software for these devices; it would seem like a crowd that loves tech like React “Native” might consider the latest devices somewhat important to their business. If developers are running old devices and old OSes, then it follows that they aren’t developing around the latest capabilities because they themselves don’t use the latest capabilities. For a “progressive” crowd, it sure seems like there are quite a few reactionaries.

This “keep my older device” argument makes perfect sense if you are an end-consumer but it makes no sense if your business is building software. Software developers ought to consider it a minimum requirement to be on the cutting edge. We should be leading the way and not doggedly hanging on to older tech.

If we were house painters, then running a 5 year old device makes no difference, but if we are supposed to be building the future, it’s illogical to be obsessed, almost to a hipster-degree with running outdated equipment.

It’s Jay-Z rocking an 8-track.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#324

Post by quanticle »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #299
WillReplyfFood wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better have a bricked phone but secured phone? That is basically your argument? Security is used to euthanize perfectly working systems and harass users for money. Security has become dangerous for the user in that aspect.

> Security is used to euthanize perfectly working systems and harass users for money That's a cynical and paranoid mindset. Bloat is a lazy tendency not a malicious evil and developers tend to optimise for the latest and greatest if left unchecked and forced to consider backwards compatibility. > Better have a bricked phone but secured phone? lets just say don't do any financial transactions on the device or apprecia…

That's a cynical and paranoid mindset. Bloat is a lazy tendency not a malicious evil and developers tend to optimise for the latest and greatest if left unchecked and forced to consider backwards compatibility.

As a user, do I care whether my phone is unusable because the developers wanted specifically to render older hardware unusable or whether it was just through their negligence in failing to consider older devices? Stupidity or malice, the result is the same.

lets just say don't do any financial transactions on the device or appreciate the general openness of your phone to malicious actors who might use it for nefarious purposes.

I keep hearing this, but what's the actual presence of malware on Android? If you're not installing shady apps from the Play Store, what's your actual level of risk? Android, even old versions of Android, are far harder to reliably exploit than say, unpatched Windows. As long as you're not installing free-to-play flashlight apps that require every permission under the sun, I'd say your exposure to malware on Android is far less than it is on PC. For the average user, they're still probably better off conducting financial transactions on their phone than conducting those same transactions on their malware ridden laptops.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#325

Post by richsaunders »

I'm one of those people. Still using US$100 Asus Zenfone 4, running Android K; with 8GB internal memory and 1GB RAM. My phone still looking and running good, no scratches, and no lags. I only use 1.56GB internal memory for apps, nothing fancy, just some apps that I truly need.

The reason I'm not considering to upgrade my Android is because of this article: It's The User Experience, Stupid.[0] I already see Android O in action, and some newest Android devices, but I don't think it's worth my money. So, I'm planning to keep using my 3 year old phone until it's dead.

[0]: http://usabilitypost.com/2008/12/03/its-the-user-experience-...

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#326

Post by pksadiq »

jhasse wrote: post #321
pksadiq wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's one reason I'm still hoping for a Linux/Firefox phone. You should rather hope for GNU/Linux phones. Linux devices (without the GNU part) is most of the time, just another locked device (see your Android phone, router, TV, etc). The presence of GNU software pieces (or any software licensed under GNU [LA]GPL v3+) ensures the device is free of locks (or with user breakable locks).

> The presence of GNU software pieces (or any software licensed under GNU [LA]GPL v3+) ensures the device is free of locks (or with user breakable locks). That's not true, as the Linux kernel is still GPLv2. So while you could swap out the userspace GNU utils, the device manufacturer can still lock the bootloader which is perfectly fine with the GPLv2. Even if the bootloader is unlockable (e.g. LG allows this btw), y…

> That's not true, as the Linux kernel is still GPLv2. So while you could swap out the userspace GNU utils, the device manufacturer can still lock the bootloader which is perfectly fine with the GPLv2.

Yeah, probably. But the presence of packages like GNU libc can make it harder for the manufacturer to lock the device.

> ... kernel version due to proprietary binary blobs which nearly every phone uses.

Sadly, binary blobs are always an issue. In the case of Linux, this happened because many Linux developers don't care about binary blobs. If they did, you won't see any binary blobs (as it is a violation of GNU GPL).

> ... with complete open source drivers

My main point was to quote that 'open source' doesn't solve these issues. We should take software freedom more seriously.

> ... (or a GPLv3 kernel).

I wish we will not have to wait until the human civilization end in fire to see this.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#327

Post by majani »

ben_w wrote: post #288
dilap wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but it is true that newer updates dramatically slow down older hardware.

I thought this had been tested recently and shown not true? A psychological illusion or something? I’ve never noticed any significant, let alone dramatic, speed change on any given device from iOS 3 on the original iPad onwards.

Apps that represent light websites like Google and Facebook are now 300mb+. With such memory hogging updates, few people with older phones are going to update.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#328

Post by chrisper »

ionised wrote: post #316
shadowtree wrote: post #92

Love the HN crowd here explaining that staying still on old tech full of security holes is a-ok. :) Both Android and iOS have made awesome progress on all fronts, from security to stuff like AR and ML. You can now have a supercomputer in your pocket - just using it for phone/texts is such a waste.

> just using it for phone/texts is such a waste. What else would you suggest I use it for? It's worse at pretty much everything except GPS than my desktop or laptop.

You take pictures with your desktop or laptop?

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#329

Post by jhasse »

pksadiq wrote: post #326
jhasse wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The presence of GNU software pieces (or any software licensed under GNU [LA]GPL v3+) ensures the device is free of locks (or with user breakable locks). That's not true, as the Linux kernel is still GPLv2. So while you could swap out the userspace GNU utils, the device manufacturer can still lock the bootloader which is perfectly fine with the GPLv2. Even if the bootloader is unlockable (e.g. LG allows this btw), y…

> That's not true, as the Linux kernel is still GPLv2. So while you could swap out the userspace GNU utils, the device manufacturer can still lock the bootloader which is perfectly fine with the GPLv2. Yeah, probably. But the presence of packages like GNU libc can make it harder for the manufacturer to lock the device. > ... kernel version due to proprietary binary blobs which nearly every phone uses. Sadly, binary b…

> Yeah, probably. But the presence of packages like GNU libc can make it harder for the manufacturer to lock the device.

glibc is LGPL, so I don't see how that should change anything?

> (as it is a violation of GNU GPL).

IIRC it's a gray area.

Re: There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use

#330

Post by crankylinuxuser »

kuschku wrote: post #317
porfirium wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are kernel drivers subject to the GPL just because they use the Linux ABI?

It'd be a long legal discussion to properly answer your question, but luckily OEMs make it easy for us: On most phones, there are zero external kernel modules loaded. The SoC vendor bakes it all into the ketnel, and the OEM gets the kernel as a blob. Which means all of it is subject to the GPL.

Yep, I had to go sleep (yeah, that dreadful thing!).

But this was my main area of attack. You compiled the drivers directly into the kernel. Making it all GPL. Now, as a strict reading, I have to have the device to make the request. That's not difficult. Ive phones from a lot of US named companies.

I just want the rights enumerated in the GPL as granted to end users. I'm no kernel maintainer. Just a cranky person who wants the GPL enforced as any license.

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