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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#321
post #290

I think it's very important to parse Pao from the reprehensible behavior she describes in her workplace. Being polite, Pao does not come off well in her own personal story. But she was also swimming in a garbage pit. I have no doubt that what she writes about is true, and probably even holds back on much of the frat house nonsense. There can be entire semesters spent at school exploring other avenues that she might h…

> Pao's story is important to tell, but she lacks the personal credibility for people to care.

This.

[EDIT]

All you downvoters... please do explain why Pao is such a relatable character whom we can all empathise with so easily.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#322
post #290

I think it's very important to parse Pao from the reprehensible behavior she describes in her workplace. Being polite, Pao does not come off well in her own personal story. But she was also swimming in a garbage pit. I have no doubt that what she writes about is true, and probably even holds back on much of the frat house nonsense. There can be entire semesters spent at school exploring other avenues that she might h…

This is such a strange view - you don't care about Pao's side of the story because she's not a complete paragon of virtue? You also seem to be basing that on her time at Reddit, during which, as the article mentions, she was being smeared by Kleiner?

> Pao's story is important to tell, but she lacks the personal credibility for people to care.

Was a clear way to say the story is relevant but unfortunate choice of storyteller

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you want humans to have children, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think fathers in Norway are forced to take a maternity leave, which are equally long as mothers' leaves. That's seems like a fair solution.

Friendly correction: for fathers, it's called a paternity leave. I thoroughly enjoyed mine, and recommend all parents to if possible do the same :)

And some fathers would LOVE a paternity leave (you would't have to force them). I just had a baby 6 weeks ago and took 4 week off (3 paid, 1 unpaid) of my own vacation time.

I understand that the baby is more dependent on the mother and childbirth is obviously more physically taxing on women, but I'd like to see more equality for men too. Women at my company can get 6 months PTO.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#324

>and downplays the impact of obvious and unobjectionable steps like [..] "give expectant mothers maternity leave" This is a bit off-topic, but maternity leave is neither obvious nor unobjectionable. There is significant empirical evidence that shows that policies such as long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression. Have a look at: * The impact of Nordic countries’ family friendly policies on…

But you want humans to have children, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think fathers in Norway are forced to take a maternity leave, which are equally long as mothers' leaves. That's seems like a fair solution.

> But you want humans to have children, right?

While I do, I don't think most of Western public policy does. It seems like we've fundamentally outsourced children to third world countries. Raising a child in any state is going to be much costlier than raising him/her in the Philippines for example.

When the children become economically valuable adults - or prove to have enough economic potential (say by being admitted into a university), they are imported into the West. In a very cynical way, this is sort of what immigration has become. Instead of tackling the issue of why people are not reproducing, public policy seems happier to drain the most economically useful citizens from other countries.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#325
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that a lot of engineers get very annoyed when the topic of "sexism in Silicon Valley" is brought up, because anybody who is in a hiring position for specifically engineering knows exactly how utilitarian the hiring process is. For positions and treatment of individuals working in venture capital, however, I don't imagine very many engineers would have much to weigh in on. So what I'm getting at is that I'…

> ...anybody who is in a hiring position for specifically engineering knows exactly how utilitarian the hiring process is. Well, it attempts to be utilitarian. However, there are routinely articles on HN, from the perspective of the prospect and the company, about how much of a crapshoot interviewing for coding is.

Yes, it's a crapshoot. There can be bad hiring decisions. There can be bad business decisions. And people can be jerks or rude. People are passed over promotions. That happens all the time to everyone. But it's problematic when someone sees each event as happening to them as some conspiracy against their race/gender/age/whatever, as opposed to someone just disagreeing with them or dismissing their argument because they think it's a weak argument. And this is made worse because some people view everything through the lense of identity. It is literally the only developed conceptual framework they have. And when you try to explain, no, it was because I thought Y was better, then there must be unconscious bias, that you weren't even aware of.

So fundamentally this debate is about the existence of an objective reality that does not have, at its base, gender or race or other attributes. Most of us who are engineers see a different base and it's pretty condescending to have someone explain to you that you prefer the person who aced the interview to the person who struggled because of some unconscious bias, or that you asked the wrong questions, etc.

When I interview, I have a bank of questions and answers already written out. Each question has a well-defined definition of passing. I decide which question to ask based on the topics that the person lists on their resume. That is, question selection happens from reading the resume, and it happens before the interview. If they say they know javascript, I give them something from the JS pile. If they say they know crypto, I give them something from that pile. I don't want to ambush them with stuff they don't know. The assumption is that if they know the stuff they say they know well, then they can learn what they don't know as needed.

And believe me, there are huge differences in how people do on these questions. For example, in the javascript test, I have some code with vulnerabilities that I ask them to find. I give them the code, explain what it does, explain what I want them to do, and either stay in the room or walk away, depending on what they want. After 20 min, I come back and ask them what they found. A large number of people find nothing. Some find one, but not the biggest one. Some find everything. Some are not able to understand how the code even works. This is for a security role.

If they say they know crypto, then I have a bank of crypto questions. For example, I write down a common authentication and key establishment protocol. Then I ask them what could an attacker do if the last confirmation message was not sent. There are huge differences in outcomes. Some people are confused and have no idea. Others start confidently making stuff up. Others actually identify attacks that would be possible, demonstrating an understanding of cryptographic protocols. None of these differences are based on race, gender, age, etc.

There isn't too much of a middle ground -- most people either succeed or fail. Now, they may have failed because they were having a bad day, or maybe they don't do well at technical interviews, or they might have lied on their resume, but there is an objective reality. This is what people mean when they say the interviews are utilitarian. But I honestly don't think that a large portion of the population is capable of understanding that. They really see everything in terms of identity, so the questions must have been sexist, or I was being unfair to the interviewee.

Now the battle becomes, must everyone else also reject objective reality? Must everyone else throw away the notion of ranking candidates based on their ability to reason abstractly and demonstrate problem solving skills in a live interview, or must we just adopt a notion of "qualification" ? E.g. do we give everyone a job based on their GPA/list of degrees, or is there room for performance based evaluation of individuals? This debate is very important to tech, because there are a lot of incompetent engineers with degrees that really impact a team. There is a big difference in productivity between good engineers and bad engineers. Joel Spolsky is spot on here: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/10/25/the-guerrilla-guid...

In engineering, actual talent matters, and it matters a lot. This isn't like hiring a bus driver. You don't get promoted for having been there for X years, and you don't get hired based on your credentials. Your idea doesn't get adopted because "it's your turn" to have your way. Individual talent matters, and the fact that we may not always detect it accurately is not evidence of the hiring process not being utilitarian or any kind of identity-based discrimination.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#326
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> somewhere that didn't absolutely suck to work People telling you that you're unprofessional can mean that you're the one making work suck for them.

To be fair, it can mean a lot of things. People use "unprofessional" to mean "I don't like that". It used to be unprofessional to wear jeans to work.

I wear jeans to work on days when I have an important presentation to give and want to "dress up a bit".

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#327

Yes. But as a man you're not allowed to complain about that. Men cannot be discriminated against or harassed. /S

And if a man comes to a woman's door in a bathrobe it's sexual harrassment but if it's the wother way around then the man should feel blessed for the honor right?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In his tl;dr he said hiring more women would be bad for business. He did not. The TL;DR said: ● Discrimination to reach equal representation is unfair, divisive, and bad for business.

As I said in my message that anticipated your reply, he calls for discrimination to reach higher representation of conservatives in the same memo. Presumably he wouldn't be doing so if he thought that was unfair or divisive, and he explicitly claims it would be good for business. The only factor that changes is "conservative" to "women" one of which he thinks is good for business and one of which he thinks is bad for…

I don't find that call for discrimination in the text. Are we reading the same document?

When I read it, he mentions conservatives only in the section "Suggestions / Stop alienating conservatives" where he says:

In highly progressive environments, conservatives are a minority that feel like they need to stay in the closet to avoid open hostility. We should empower those with different ideologies to be able to express themselves.

It seems to me that you are misrepresenting the memo, as so many others have done. Perhaps you have read some commentary, many of which also misrepresented it, and not the memo itself?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> treating your coworkers and customers with respect and empathy This can be as subjective as the word professionalism. People always use their own value judgement in these things - whether it's deciding if something is professional, or not, or if something is respectful, or not. Sometimes, you do have to just follow rules, for the sake of it, because there is no standard in personal value.

I don't think anyone would disagree that being respectful is a "professional" quality. "The staff was very professional." What imagery does that illicit? If you're like me, or just about anyone else I've ever heard use the term, polite is one of the first words that springs to mind. It doesn't matter if you get your work done. There are a hundred other people who can get your work done and do it without being a dick.…

Again, we just shift to the meaning of "being a dick", another subjective term.

If you want to pin down a concept, you can't just deal with easily categorised instances - the real distinctions exist in the grey areas.

There's a multi-dimensional gradient between polite and impolite, and where the thresholds lie is determined by personal value. Pick points far enough to either side, and most of those thresholds will fall within - but it is in the "grey area" that they disagree. That is why an arbitrary, but unambiguous threshold is needed as a standard.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#330

Something doesn't add up.... when my co-worker or manager makes sexist or racial jokes, my experience tells me that a) the immediate issue to be solved is not the sexism or racial discrimination in my line of business, but this specific person. The only solution -- this person needs to be replaced, not taught to behave (let alone persuaded to change views), and that b) his/hers personal issues very probably don't sto…

The problem is that you can't fire everyone who makes racist or sexist jokes from the industry since they will just group together and start new companies. Those companies will thrive until they become large enough to gain media attention, at which point it leads to another scandal with lots of firings and the cycle repeats.
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