I'm not a Woman in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#321

Post by hosh » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:40 PM UTC

eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #258

iamatworknow wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of the article. It's not that these things don't exist, or didn't exist for her -- of course they do. The point seems, to me at least, to be that in order to attempt to actually solve these problems you can't actively (or passively) try to exclude yourself from the people causing them. It's like politics -- if you separate yourself into "us" versus "them", how are you ever supposed to…

Different and opposing groups work together to find a common solution all the time. You can be different and work in a group and it not be antagonistic. This "us v. them" mentality is fostered by people who don't want to contribute with people who are different, they want everyone to assimilate into "their way." Take the "black lives matter" movement. If we followed the OPs advice, they should just protest that "all…

This is something my friends and I were talking about privately for a while now. One of the things that came out of it was something summed up by one of my friends -- stop founding movements, start founding communities.

Modernism (and I'm talking as far back as the early 1900s, and arguably, even earlier than that) has eroded our sense community. Our communication tech has, over the past few centuries, have allowed people to talk to each other at greater physical distance while at the same time, created more emotional distance from each other. While modernism might have produced great advancement in science and technology and challenged traditional dogmas, it also threw out a lot of what we needed from those traditions. Community-building is one of them.

Movements that are trying to raise awareness on problems and change don't always have a clear idea on what happens after the fight is over: can you imagine still living, working, and playing with those people after all is said and done?

Take "Black Lives Matter", or even "All Lives Matter". People voice their deep concerns, the ugly things get aired out. And after all of that, can you see yourself living next door? Your children playing and going to school together? Going to the pub after a town hall meeting? Barbecue at the park on a summer day? Borrow each other's tools? Asking each other for advice? Taking in one of the kids after school because your neighbor is busy that day?

Or do you get a sense of fear, disgust, resentment, contempt, or despair?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#322

Post by lostPixels » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

fruzz wrote: post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

You can't attack someone's beliefs because they cited anecdotal experiences, and then go and do the same thing to justify your beliefs.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#323

Post by dclowd9901 » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

serg_chernata wrote: post #4

aphextron wrote: post #2

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.

There's a third choice: Have a supportive opinion. Knowing full-well that you don't understand what it's like to be a woman/African American/non-binary/non-straight person in this situation, express belief in everyone's individual experience, and support them in it. Don't assume you know, just listen and show support. If it's a matter of having to decide between the two opinions, bow out, because you have no say.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#324

Post by zjaffee » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

meej wrote: post #267

"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly…

The one advantage I see beyond the traditional self-organization of various diversity groups is that an ERG can do a lot with a non zero amount of money, and influence within the recruiting department.

Forced participation is never a good thing when it comes to this type of stuff, but to have the money to send those who do wish to participate to events that help those who feel excluded, to feel included is certainly valuable in its own way.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#325

Post by lostPixels » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:46 PM UTC

scruple wrote: post #287

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because if I learned anything, anything you say can and most likely probably will be used against you. Even right now, writing on a niche message board using a fake name, I'm hesitant to voice my honest opinions about anything related to race or gender or other topic like that. it's like there's an army of internet people waiting for you to mess up and will punish you with controversy and/or honestly try and get yo…

Absolutely. 9/10 of the comments that I write on HN never see the light of day. And not just on HN, but pretty much every social media platform I engage with. I don't feel like I have anything particularly controversial, inflammatory, or offensive to say. But, I so strongly don't want to be perceived that way that I just opt-out most of the time.

Which is a shame because often the most polarized commentary is the only thing left in online discourse. There's obviously a silent majority who isn't either an "alt-right nazi" or a "feminazi" etc. but doesn't speak up because they're afraid of being branded as one.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#326

Post by zjaffee » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:54 PM UTC

BlackjackCF wrote: post #36

As a queer woman in tech... I feel this so much. I don't really know where to sit on this. It's a bit confusing for me. I understand the need for "X minority group in tech" events, I really do. I think it helps newcomers and people who feel like they're at the fringe find a community. At the same time, I DO find it a little weird at times to go to "LGBTQ-only", "Asian-only", or "women-only" events. It just kind of re…

> I think it helps newcomers and people who feel like they're at the fringe find a community.

Once thing I've noticed is a lot of the diversity events are directed towards college students. Grace Hopper has a large student presence, in addition to conferences like Out for Undergraduate which are for UG students only.

For someone with zero or very little professional experience, to read all these articles about how they will be discriminated against once they start working. Having such resource groups is important, so they know that there are people who do have their back.

Once you're an experienced professional, who has built a network of people who recognize your engineering abilities, this fear is less present on the surface, as it can be easier to avoid toxic people when you have the ability to choose who you work with (in a way a new grad doesn't).

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#327

Post by delecti » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:55 PM UTC

akatechis wrote: post #276

delecti wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see their preferences as necessarily conflicting from your point of view. Some people of various groups want the ability to have events of their own, and others want to be included in non-restrictive coding events. Allow/encourage both. Don't fight back against "Women Who Code" events, and be welcoming and polite to women at non-restrictive coding events. You don't need to have a stance on which is better, an…

Why would a white or men exclusive event be trouble? Are white men the tainted scourge of the world?

Are you asking sincerely, or are you trying to do some false equivalence sealioning nonsense?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#328

Post by bostik » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:57 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #2

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

* >I want inclusivity, not exclusivity.*

I'm glad I'm not the only one who wanted to highlight that one. And despite what has been said downthread, I am going to state what I honestly believe.

TL;DR: any company who isn't trying to attract female engineers is actively shooting themselves in the foot. Before you jump to any conclusions about my statement, please read on because the issue is both subtle and complex. It doesn't fit into a soundbite.

From my experience, after nearly 20 years in the industry and a few more in the university before that, the women who stay in technology field tend to be pretty damn good. As far as I am concerned, the very concept of "Women in Tech" being a thing is, in itself, frustrating.

And now comes the subtle part. I don't believe that gender has anything to do with skills or abilities. The statements so far are not contradictory; my experience simply highlights a deep-rooted problem. The question is not "why are the women in our field better?"; it should be "what are we as an industry doing to all the rest? Why are we discouraging and scaring away the non-stellar ones?"

Now... my observations are not isolated. I have heard and read from several other sources that this is a not an uncommon situation. There is clearly a bias in play.

Either it's selection and observation bias, with only the positive samples showing up ... or it's survivor bias. The latter is a scary thought.

-----

From the research I've read, in the UK the average retention time for female engineers in tech companies is about 1 year. Judging purely by that metric, at Smarkets we are probably doing something right - or at least we are not doing notably worse than the industry overall. Of all our female engineering hires, no-one has left.

I cannot know, but I think that a good part is that we don't treat our female engineers in any special way. They are engineers. Simple as that.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#329

Post by exodust » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:58 PM UTC

thegayngler wrote: post #147

As a black man I am going to disagree with some of what she said even if I can relate on some level. You need support when you are hired especially as an "under represented" person. If the company didn't think you needed support they simply wouldn't be offering it. Most of the "not under represented" people have support that helps them become more successful.

Completely lost on your meaning, sorry. I literally have no idea what you mean. Care to elaborate? "Most of the not under represented people"... say what?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#330

Post by nsxwolf » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 6:59 PM UTC

alphapapa wrote: post #309

nsxwolf wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have kids to take care of. There are certain opinions I might have that I dare not discuss. I don't even dare say I have such opinions even without naming them, that's how deep the impulse to self-censor goes. Let's just say I do, hypothetically. I would very much fear for the economic consequences of voicing various opinions. Even if they didn't lead to my termination at work, I'm certain they would prevent any ki…

The question then is, will the world your children inherit be better or worse for people such as yourself holding their tongues. These free speech rights we technically have were not acquired without cost--on the contrary, they came at enormous cost in blood. Now we refrain from defending them because doing so might inconvenience us. Of course, it's easy for me to say this, sitting in front of a computer writing vagu…

I think most of the founders and revolutionaries didn't believe they were martyring themselves for a hopeless cause. The inconvenience here would be the total ruin of my family in exchange for the satisfaction of having spoke my mind on some issue, which isn't a good trade.