It's interesting how the NYTs conveniently left out the context of the interaction. The article let us assume that Sarah had been in a formal interview process with Dave and them he sent some random inappropriate message. They didn't say that they were out late drinking in a social situation and she asked about a job and then he sent her he message. So we really don't actually know the context of their social interaction. If any man with power hits on a girl in a social environment, is this now somehow sexual harassment because this was pretty gray and feels like a social justice hit job. Is Sarah wanted to keep this purely professional shouldn't she have made her advance outside this social context? I'm not saying Sarah was guilty of this, but attractive women do use their sexuality as a tool and we've sent out mob justice on Dave without knowing the full story.
I'm a creep. I'm sorry
321–330 of 453 posts
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#322A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I'd like to explain it. Imagine you're in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a re…
We need to legalize prostitution so that an investor or manager who has these fantasies can play them out with professional help. If we viewed prostitutes as a form of health therapist and gave them professional respect rather than keeping them in the black market a lot of these guys could work out their power issues with a trained sex professional instead of creating these nightmares for innocent women who just want…
You're assuming these guys see this as a problem. I suspect for most of them, the power issues are, erotically, the whole point. Why patronize a prostitute for make believe alpha male abuse of one's position when one has the real thing every day?
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think asking coworkers out is a huge no-no. If the only people in your orbit you feel you can connect with that way are at work, that's a sign your personal life needs some development. However, let's say you have a robust personal life, and you just have this absolutely amazing co-worker, who totally is not your subordinate, and ideally you don't even work directly with, and you want to ask them out... again.. I d…
It's not as black and white as you try and portray it. Sure, if the other person says "sorry, I'm busy", that's a definite no. But what if they say is "sorry I'm busy, perhaps some other time"? Are they actually busy and do they actually mean that? Or is it a polite rejection? At this point, you need to figure out based on body language which one they mean. If you guess wrong and ask again, you're a sexual harasser.…
> At this point, you need to figure out based on body language which one they mean.
Or you could ask for clarification. To get a definite answer, you should not ask the same kind of question that got you an ambiguous response last time, but instead directly address that ambiguity.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is very down in the weeds, but let me provide an example. >I'm going to place you under arrest, but if you give me your number, I might forget about it. The power dynamic there favors the officer over you. If you don't yield to him/er, you could face prison. That demonstrates the issue with power dynamic leading to sexual harassment is that one with more power over the other coerces them into yielding sexual fav…
Yes I understand that, but the power dynamic completely shifts when the powerful party shows interest. You might get yourself out of handcuffs by giving your or even a fake number if the powerful party is interested.
That's not an example of "shifting the power dynamic"
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#325A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I'd like to explain it. Imagine you're in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a re…
We need to legalize prostitution so that an investor or manager who has these fantasies can play them out with professional help. If we viewed prostitutes as a form of health therapist and gave them professional respect rather than keeping them in the black market a lot of these guys could work out their power issues with a trained sex professional instead of creating these nightmares for innocent women who just want…
Agreed, prostitution as a profession should be seen more as a therapy, than as a playground for men to exploit their darkest sexual desires. I mean, if you read some of the horrific experiences prostitutes undergo, it'll leave you with disgust.
Bottomline, we men have to learn to treat women with respect and equality, regardless of their profession, period. This is portrayed superbly in Pretty Woman.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think asking coworkers out is a huge no-no. If the only people in your orbit you feel you can connect with that way are at work, that's a sign your personal life needs some development. However, let's say you have a robust personal life, and you just have this absolutely amazing co-worker, who totally is not your subordinate, and ideally you don't even work directly with, and you want to ask them out... again.. I d…
>If the only people in your orbit you feel you can connect with that way are at work, that's a sign your personal life needs some development. Then a very, very significant portion (quite possibly close to half of the population, or approaching thereof in some fields) have personal life developmental problems......or....it could just be that your world view or definition of "appropriate" is a bit off. Which one of th…
Since we are talking about highly male dominated field, his definition is right. They have problem and there is not enough female programmers for them all. And even if they would marry one, they won't spend time with their children and all care will be on her - meaning that they need traditional women who has little carrer ambitions and is simultaneously programmer.
It just so happens that traditional women tend to chose more feminine professions and people with little carrer ambitions tend to prefer slower workplace.
So, good luck.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd be more worried if he made multiple advances to the same woman after being shot down multiple times by that woman. That's harassment. He's just... well... he seems like a really lonely guy.
You might have had a point in your first comment, now you're just defending a guy who won't even defend himself, for some reason.
Fair, it's late and I was just trying to clarify my point.
This whole thread is toxic.
Nothing but polarized opinions. I'd like it if there was more middle ground, and a lot less emotionally-charged up/down votes. When the points start feeling like Reddit, it's a huge turnoff.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#328Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wasn't asked a question and didn't provide an answer (or even a proposal), but I understand that having a rational discussion on this topic is difficult or impossible for most people, and I'm sorry if I offended you.
> Honest question... > I wasn't asked a question... Anyway: You didn't offend me at all. I should've been more clear: It doesn't have to do with looks. That's the wrong way to look at this. And as far as subjective feelings being relevant to whether a crime is committed or not: It's not that unusual. If you threaten to kill me, for example, then my feelings are critical to deciding whether a crime has been committed.…
> It doesn't have to do with looks. That's the wrong way to look at this.
Looks play a very large role in determining attraction, which in turn plays a large role in determining whether an advance is or isn't "wanted."
The rules as they're currently written therefor apply very unevenly and unfairly. The more attractive you are, the wider your scope of acceptable behavior is. The less attractive you are, the narrower your scope of acceptable behavior is.
If Dave McClure was someone more Sarah Kunst's type, we might be reading an article about their pending nuptials. Instead, we're reading ones about how Dave McClure is a creep who should be added to the sex offender registry.
That's a pretty wide range of possible outcomes for the same behavior.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#329[deleted]
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you have a job where you are working 12 hour days and weekends, your job is your life. I am actually curious when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be - clearly the second someone brings up professional stuff, it should be out the door, but the veil of that can be breached with a simple "what have you been working on lately"
> when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be If you are in a position of power over another person, I would say there isn't an appropriate time. The number of hours you work isn't really relevant. Put it this way: when is an appropriate time for a college professor (that works long hours!) to ask a student out on a date?
If you make more money than another person or can possibly benefit them in some way or the person is attracted to you then you are in a position of power. You're argument is absurd and out of touch with the human nature.