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Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

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Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#321
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can prove you wrong. I want and like open floor plans, and have never had buyer's remorse. I'll rule out any cube farm for any future job; I hate the isolation.

Same for me, with the stipulation that I've never had my own office. But I just can't imagine having my own office unless it's a radically different role than I'm interested in. I don't see the point. I'm not taking phone calls or meeting people privately.

Focused and creative work benefit heavily from isolated environments where it is easier to focus. It is less tiring to work in quiet environments without distractions.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#322
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is one difference between the person who prefers cubicles/isolation and one who prefers an open space: when you want to get away from the isolation, all you have to do is walk over to a willing party and have a chat. For people (like me and others in this thread) who are unable to function in open spaces, there is no escape from the torture.

I don't think this is true at all. Human social behavior is incredibly sensitive to perceived norms and paths of least resistance; this can be observed all the time in online games where minor changes to UI or reward structures have drastic ramifications on player social behavior. A lot of interaction simply will never come about if it isn't fostered organically by the environment. This isn't to dispute that the bene…

Yes, but online games are a collective. Consider the case of open spaces where you have one team per aisle. Team 1 can be as noisy as they wish - there is no penalty most of the time from the unrelated Team 2. I was in such a predicament at a large e-commerce company - I was seated the aisle over from a very noisy team that ran in debug mode. They and their manager thought this was the way a good team works so my complaints were discarded with extreme prejudice. Two aisles over was a relatively quiet team with a very loud chewer/scraper - the person was very careful with his food and spent 5 minutes every work day scraping his plastic container right there at the desk.

I used to have to listen to white noise just to get away from the drip-drip torture of the endless prattle - my productivity at home used to be 5x compared to working in this open Hades.

I guess you are right - a lot of interaction will never come about if it isn't fostered organically by the environment. I am saying that in my case, what was fostered organically by the environment was people that first speak what they are about to type before typing it and utter every exclamation point associated with a failed `ls` or etc. It was Hades. I have ringing in my ears from listening to loud music and noise to drown out this aural rubbish and I can assure you that this ringing is a quintillion orders of magnitude more pleasant than the cacophony foisted on to me by the fine co-workers at this establishment, courtesy of the cage free office plan. I left as soon as I could and while I miss the money/benefits, I don't miss the noise - not one little bit.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#324
I am a woman of color. Unfortunately I do think location does matter quite a bit as I've heard of all these horror stories from tech scene in the U.S. but so far I have encountered nothing but respectful working environments, and some really good ones where I feel highly valued and have a lot of room for growth.

I think some things good to look out for during the interview are: - when you ask about their culture, what's their response? Beer and ping pong are not culture, they're at best fun stuff that young, hip bros like to do. If beer and ping pong is all they give you as an answer there might be a redflag there, it's possible that they'd discriminate against people who are not like them (people who don't drink etc.) Good answers to hear are how they want their people to succeed, what's their plan on taking their product and company up a level, what do they value and how do they carry out those values on a day to day basis? Do they provide any opportunities for employees to learn? - look at your to-be direct manager, from talking to him do you feel a sense of huge ego? do they think they know everything and is better than you at everything? or do they show a sign of humility and genuinely want to learn about your background and what you can bring to the table? - everybody else that interview you, are they behaving appropriately throughout the interview? ask them what they like and dislike about their job, that usually tells a lot. Again, if answer is "I love the free beer and pizza" something's wrong. They should be telling you what kind of opportunities they're getting at this company. Ask about work-life balance, during one of my interviews someone actually told me "the work life balance here is pretty good, some people have young children, it's not really fair to ask them to stay late everyday", and that's how I got a feel that the employer does encourage life outside of work. - I'd also watch out for companies that hire women for the sake of filling the quota, they're hiring you based on your gender, not your skills. Can you really expect that they'd value your skills enough to be supportive in your career development when you actually work there? Someone that hired you based on gender, would they really want you to get promotions in the future?

I wish I could explain better, but I think if someone is ego inflated it's fairly easy to tell just from some simple conversations, and I tend to avoid those people (I think even if I were not a woman, I'd still avoid those people).

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#325
post #114

I look for existing diversity, and of underrepresented minorities not just gender diversity (IME this is often a better signal.) Especially in upper levels: the % of Software Engineer 1s matters a lot less than the % of architects and tech leads. Second (and I kind of hate to give this one away), I ask "what do you sacrifice when recruiting to ensure diversity?" The answer should be either "it takes us longer to recr…

"Second (and I kind of hate to give this one away), I ask 'what do you sacrifice when recruiting to ensure diversity?'" I find it disturbing that you think hiring diversity entails a sacrifice.

All of life is tradeoffs. It doesn't matter if people "value" diversity in some abstract sense; it matters how they will value it when it comes into conflict with something else they value. If they can't think of anything they are willing to prioritise below diversity, they are almost certainly going to end up with a homogeneous team.

Also, I want to know that they are willing to tell people who only accept universally-applied, context-blind systems to take a hike. It is impossible to fix a cultural problem of disparate experiences with anything pretending to "objectivity".

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#326
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is one difference between the person who prefers cubicles/isolation and one who prefers an open space: when you want to get away from the isolation, all you have to do is walk over to a willing party and have a chat. For people (like me and others in this thread) who are unable to function in open spaces, there is no escape from the torture.

I don't think this is true at all. Human social behavior is incredibly sensitive to perceived norms and paths of least resistance; this can be observed all the time in online games where minor changes to UI or reward structures have drastic ramifications on player social behavior. A lot of interaction simply will never come about if it isn't fostered organically by the environment. This isn't to dispute that the bene…

If I want to talk to someone I feel very comfortable going over to their office and having a conversation. At most I'm interrupting 1 person. In an open office or cubicle farm if I walk up to someone and strike up a conversation I'm interrupting 10 people.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#327

I don't really get the reference to ping pong tables and free beer...? Is it a metaphor, or is the commenter literally referring to those things? I've worked in a range of places * Investment bank - German, very formal, very little perks * Options Trading Company - Dutch, laid-back, casual dress, free alcohol, free food, lots of games, lots of perks * Database Company - Tech startup, fairly well funded, casual dress,…

You have generated quite a bit of opinion given that you start out admitting you don't even understand the discussion and are not part of the group being asked for opinions.

There are good reasons to be suspicious of companies who push hard on the "we're so fun!" angle. It can be a warning sign of any or all of: chaotic management, chaotic development practices, a work-all-the-time culture, a culture that's not family friendly, a bro-y culture, or relatively immature employee base. (It can also be just fine.)

Alcohol use can be especially problematic. Sometimes it's fine, and sometimes it's a sign of one of the things I mention above. But even when it doesn't indicate a systemic problem, in male-dominated environments it increases risk for women.

See, for example, the Geek Feminism entry on having alcohol at conventions: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassmen...

I've personally heard a number of horror stories from women in tech about getting sexually harassed at off-sites with alcohol.

So yeah, your not understanding why these things could be a problem is not a good indicator that they are not actually a problem.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#328
post #323

Why not stop off in Boulder on your way to CA?

Maybe it's "grass is always greener syndrome" but as someone who grew up in the Denver area I'd rather head to Washington or California than stay in CO. As with any city, Boulder works for some but not all; I'd caution that the Denver area has its own challenges for minorities and vulnerable populations. Racism, sexism, any other type of bigotry: I've seen it while growing up here.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#329
post #56

Disclaimer: I am women, but never stepped the foot in CA. Geography matters. I see ping pong tables and free beer as a red flag of sorts and seek workplace that is more formal. The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters. I have no stats to support this, just my guess and…

Thanks for sharing!

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#330

Silicon valley culture used to be that way, and is still that way. The cube farms was the prevailing best practice. Then the pendulum swung to the other side with the new kids entering the workforce and wanted open office, work families, and all that. Which then created the cargo culting from others entering the process. Now we're on the bubble of the pendulum swinging back. So it goes.

Where does one work in SW in SF if one wants an office with a door? Does it even exist?
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