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Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

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321–330 of 395 posts

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#321
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the problem is that sometimes, people are not able to refuse a work agreement. There are plenty of cases where a potential employee essentially has a choice between signing and starving. If the employer knows this, that is no longer an agreement between consenting adults. If I put a gun to your head, and you then 'consent' to an agreement where you give me money, and I don't shoot you, is that a hallmark of free…

>No, the problem is that sometimes, people are not able to refuse a work agreement. That statement has absolutely no basis in reality. It gets trotted out time and time again, however. >There are plenty of cases where a potential employee essentially has a choice between signing and starving. Again, that is pure BS. No one starves in the US. The number one health problem is obesity. >If I put a gun to your head, and…

>Again, that is pure BS. No one starves in the US. The number one health problem is obesity.

As someone who has been starving in the US and signed a suffocating work agreement to feed myself and keep my apartment, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Plenty of people starve in the US.

I don't think I'm an edge case, either -- I have many friends in similar (or worse) situations. If you've never had to strategically overdraw money from your bank account or write a check you knew would bounce to get by, then I don't think you know how bad it can get for the "middle" class.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm implementing literally the same stuff at the same time then I bet that's a massive copyright violation. You have to take pains to avoid contamination when reverse engineering a product, for example, and that doesn't even involve the original staff. Seems that your argument could also be used to justify lifetime noncompetes. If I work for a company, gain experience, then go work for another company, they're get…

But your next company is getting your prior experience, which becomes more out-of-date every day, not your up-to-the-minute experience on what might be an actively competing project.

doesn't negate the problem stated as whatever the experience is, it's value is non-zero. Hence the benefit to later employers is also non-zero (could be argued) at the cost of earlier employers

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#323
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's reasonable if the severance is equal to the pay you'd get over the term of the non-compete. They don't want you working for a competitor for a year? That's fine, if they pay you a year's salary. However, in my friend's case, she was given the 1-year noncompete in exchange for 4 weeks' pay.

Presumably she turned it down?

Probably didn't know it would be 1 month severence.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't say that your definition of a free society is wrong, but I think it's worth pointing out that it doesn't exactly rule out a feudal system.

>I won't say that your definition of a free society is wrong, but I think it's worth pointing out that it doesn't exactly rule out a feudal system. I didn't provide a "definition" of a free society.

I suppose your post doesn't rule out that 'a free society' might be characterised by more than just the ability to freely enter agreements. However you did fail to distinguish your free society from a feudal system.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#325
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone has to work to produce the goods and services we need In slavery the owner is creating the conditions of oppression. In free market the employer is paying the wages which could potentially lift the employee out of poverty Equating all hardships to slavery is pure folly

> Someone has to work to produce the goods and services we need I agree, but they don't have to work for someone else who extracts surplus. They can organise themselves and work themselves, voluntarily. They then own the products they make and decide how and if to distribute them. >In free market the employer is paying the wages which could potentially lift the employee out of poverty In slavery, the slave owner is p…

> but they don't have to work for someone else who extracts surplus

This surplus is profit, which is the motivation for setting up businesses. Take that away and there is no good reason for taking the risk

> They can organise themselves and work themselves, voluntarily.

This is already allowed in a capitalist society

> They then own the products they make and decide how and if to distribute them

Disagree. The labourers own their labour and the owners own the product

> In slavery, the slave owner is providing the housing and food which could potentially lift the slave out of being in a state without food or shelter

Again, in slavery you do not own your labour. So the surplus of your wages ( or time ) cannot be invested, or used to create capital

> The owner and employer both perpetuate the system of oppression, this much is a fact. If there were no capitalists, there would be capitalism. If there were no slave owners, there would be no slavery. If there were no lords, there would be no feudalism.

What does this even mean ?

> You cannot escape the fact that the capitalist is taking advantage of the lack of choice and lack of capital by virtue of accident of birth and the property system which the capitalist defends and supports

Without property ( which ultimately boils down to the right to enjoy the fruits of one's labour ) there is no good reason to perform the unenviable job we call "work"

To me, it looks like the system you are proposing would be very much like slavery

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#326
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone has to work to produce the goods and services we need I agree, but they don't have to work for someone else who extracts surplus. They can organise themselves and work themselves, voluntarily. They then own the products they make and decide how and if to distribute them. >In free market the employer is paying the wages which could potentially lift the employee out of poverty In slavery, the slave owner is p…

> but they don't have to work for someone else who extracts surplus This surplus is profit, which is the motivation for setting up businesses. Take that away and there is no good reason for taking the risk > They can organise themselves and work themselves, voluntarily. This is already allowed in a capitalist society > They then own the products they make and decide how and if to distribute them Disagree. The laboure…

>Take that away and there is no good reason for taking the risk

I'm not arguing for businesses, I'm arguing for the destruction of capitalism. I hope that businesses currently around fail.

>This is already allowed in a capitalist society

Any organisation which attempts to do so will fail very quickly, due to the fact that (i) workers must be kept employed, not disposed of when machinery that does a better job becomes available (ii) workers would have to be paid much higher than in those firms that do not operate as co-operatives. These two facts mean that such an organisation cannot compete. A good analysis is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAxajtiRatg

It is not a viable option within capitalism to provide for the labour force in the interests of the labour force. Also, most people cannot be employed in a co-operative, so the problem still exists. As long as the problem exists for even one person, I view that as reason to fix the system.

>The labourers own their labour and the owners own the product

Wrong. Labourers sell their labour-time to the capitalist, and that commodity has the use value of creating labour, which is transferred to the products. The labour is crystallised inside the products which are made, and those are appropriated by the capitalist at the end of production. If the worker owned his labour, the products at the end of production which the capitalist re-possesses in order to sell would have no more value than when they entered the factory as raw materials and machinery. Therefore the capitalist could not make any profit.

>What does this even mean ?

Capitalism requires land and property owners; if those land and property owners cease to exist, capitalism must also cease to exist. As such, the system which creates the force for people to choose between starving and wage labour is perpetuated by the whole class of property owners, i.e the capitalists.

>Without property ( which ultimately boils down to the right to enjoy the fruits of one's labour ) there is no good reason to perform the unenviable job we call "work"

Why is work unenviable? And within a Socialist society, the workers own what they produce by the end of the production process. They can then decide democratically how to distribute the products that they make among themselves, or choose to not distribute them at all. If you are trying to say that humans just sit around all day and do nothing, this is incorrect; in any system, one must work to survive. In a Socialist system, you are rewarded according to your labour, because you own what you make in a joint production process.

There are various motivations for wanting to work, too; the desire for credit, wanting to provide for your family and children, wanting to improve the conditions of the society you live in, the desire to help other people in your community, out of necessity for something you want to see finished, for mastery, as a hobby, etc.

It will be up to an individual to decide why he wishes to work, but in no circumstance will he forced to sell his labour-power for someone to make money from his labour without doing an hour of labour themselves.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#327
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been presented with one (and hope I never will) so this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time imagining even doing that. A company is paying me to work for them, they're not paying to own me. When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want. I'd make an exception if they increased my pay accordingly. But considering that they're asking for 4.2x more of…

> A company is paying me to work for them, they're not paying to own me. True. But said company may not want your experience, let alone anything you learn about their business, to benefit competitors. Indeed, they may consider your training with them to be an investment, which gives them rights about what you do with it.

Belated edit: I'm not agreeing with said company. I'm just pointing to its perspective and reasoning.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your new employer doesn't have to fight anything. Non-executive non-competes are specifically disallowed by the CA gov't. It's up to your previous employer to prove you were an executive (upper management/c-suite) and sue you, not vice versa.

But then you have to deal with a lawsuit, hire a lawyer, etc. Just because it's unenforceable doesn't mean that your shitty employer can't sue you. Why not just head it off at the beginning and have it right there in the signed contract?

The plaintiff pays costs in these cases (filing fees, motion fees, etc) and, if it gets thrown out (most likely, as it would be considered frivolous)/you win, you owe nothing. It's really a stupid action for a company to try and take.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#329
post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Neat, but in practice it doesn't work. In my ~20 years experience, I've found that while things like salary and vacation are negotiable, the terms in tech employment contracts are not negotiable. I've tried that cute "strike out the stuff in your employment agreement that you don't agree to" move, and in ALL cases, received a stern note from the corporate legal department a few days later basically saying "Sign it un…

I always negotiate. Not a redlined version, but I make a list of points I have questions about or disagree with, and call them to discuss it. If they won't budge, I look elsewhere.

Of course I have the advantage of living in a place where there's plenty of work. If jobs are scarce where you live, that significantly changes the labour market.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not "notoriously difficult to enforce", they're specifically unenforcable to non-executives. The CA legislature and judiciary have long since settled any questions regarding these and also have frameworks in place for companies trying to make you an "executive engineer" or "director of blah" to try and get around it.

Beyond that, not just the clause is unenforceable, it invalidates the whole contract.

Invalidating the whole contract is not good. You still want to get paid and get all the other benefits from the contract.
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