U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#321

Post by digler999 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 3:51 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #314

jazzyk wrote: post #301

This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. While the idea of helping people become more educated is obviously beneficial to both individuals and the society as a whole, government loans - which are supposed to "help" - are a huge factor fueling ever-raising costs. The loans, in effect, subsidize the higher-education complex, rather than students. Many of us have been brainwashed to think that high…

I see this sentiment a lot, and I feel like you fundamentally misunderstand what is actually happening at universities. Discounting athletics, which in some places are revenue neutral and can be counted as marketing/local cultural artifact depending on who you talk to, the "wise passionate teachers" you praise so aren't there to teach idiot undergrads. Instead, they're hired to do research with the teaching as essent…

> the school's way of competing for the piles of grant money replacement known as undergrads.

I say it's a consequence of their windfall profits from 3-5% yearly tuition increases. Most institutions have "use-it-or-lose-it" budgets. Their accountants can only be so clever in finding ways to spend it, lest it pile up and get released on a state budget report. Then everyone would scream "Why does UXY have a $50mil surplus when they just increased tuition!".

If they wanted to actually compete, they would lower prices. Thats what attracts buyers.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#322

Post by treebeard901 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 3:54 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #301

This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. While the idea of helping people become more educated is obviously beneficial to both individuals and the society as a whole, government loans - which are supposed to "help" - are a huge factor fueling ever-raising costs. The loans, in effect, subsidize the higher-education complex, rather than students. Many of us have been brainwashed to think that high…

> the law of unintended consequences

A cynical person might say it is an intended consequence. Higher prices raise the barrier to entry for lower classes.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#323

Post by digler999 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 3:57 PM UTC

skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

> tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, the humanities

Kind of ironic you say that, since the humanities programs themselves "tune out" all recognition to Eastern/South American/African art and humanities. I took 3 required "western traditions" classes, and except for a brief study of sumerian/egyptian cultures, the vast majority centered around dead white men.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#324

Post by trgn » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 3:57 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #217

Speaking from a purely market-driven position, the Student Loan Debt market has one issue that prevents colleges from not raising tuition prices: its the incapacity to default on loans. Its obvious a huge part of the loans are used for careers that will never make its money back, and the loans only collateral are the person itself(not his parents assets). So if someone had an arts degree that cost him 150k, and never…

Is the $150k fine arts degree really that common? These are the anecdotes we see in the news, because they stoke populist outrage and generate rage clicks. But I think they barely register in the overall stats. My completely unfounded opinion based on personal experience is that most humanities or fine arts students come from families that actually more or less can afford it anyway.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#325

Post by JulianMorrison » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

cpursley wrote: post #289

JulianMorrison wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

If someone can just get on Basic Income, why even bother with attending college and putting in all that hard work? This is a serious question. Most people are not intrinsically motivated; the hacker news echo-chamber is an anomaly.

Most people ARE intrinsically motivated. It's just that in this society, the things you do for intrinsic motivations are called "hobbies" or "play".

Hobbies are basically non-job things to get good at that don't pressure you with an economic sword of Damocles.

In a Basic Income world, essentially, ALL jobs are hobbies. Those that suck too hard to be hobbies had better automate.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#326

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:03 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #314

jazzyk wrote: post #301

This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. While the idea of helping people become more educated is obviously beneficial to both individuals and the society as a whole, government loans - which are supposed to "help" - are a huge factor fueling ever-raising costs. The loans, in effect, subsidize the higher-education complex, rather than students. Many of us have been brainwashed to think that high…

I see this sentiment a lot, and I feel like you fundamentally misunderstand what is actually happening at universities. Discounting athletics, which in some places are revenue neutral and can be counted as marketing/local cultural artifact depending on who you talk to, the "wise passionate teachers" you praise so aren't there to teach idiot undergrads. Instead, they're hired to do research with the teaching as essent…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#327

Post by ska » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:07 PM UTC

digler999 wrote: post #321

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this sentiment a lot, and I feel like you fundamentally misunderstand what is actually happening at universities. Discounting athletics, which in some places are revenue neutral and can be counted as marketing/local cultural artifact depending on who you talk to, the "wise passionate teachers" you praise so aren't there to teach idiot undergrads. Instead, they're hired to do research with the teaching as essent…

> the school's way of competing for the piles of grant money replacement known as undergrads. I say it's a consequence of their windfall profits from 3-5% yearly tuition increases. Most institutions have "use-it-or-lose-it" budgets. Their accountants can only be so clever in finding ways to spend it, lest it pile up and get released on a state budget report. Then everyone would scream "Why does UXY have a $50mil surp…

  If they wanted to actually compete, they would lower prices. Thats what attracts buyers.

That is a dangerously oversimplified view of how markets work. Buyers are attracted by a broad range of factors, only one of which is price.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#328

Post by Kalium » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:08 PM UTC

skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

You're absolutely right! A broader perspective, deeper experience, and the ability to effectively analyze and engage with human culture is immensely valuable. So, how valuable do you think all of those are when measured in terms of dollars and human lifetimes?

I'd go so far as to suggest that learning the tools and language to construct a building, treat cancer, or program a computer all may offer significantly upside for human culture and civilization. This is in potential constract when items in that list are neglected in favor of Roman poetry, post-modern art, or dissecting the rhyming schemes of long-dead authors.

The humanities have their place, but the list of things that broaden our perspectives and deepen our experiences is literally the list of all subjects that can be studied. The humanities have no monopoly on perspective, experience, or reasoning.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#329

Post by jazzyk » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

jimmywanger wrote: post #315

jazzyk wrote: post #301

This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. While the idea of helping people become more educated is obviously beneficial to both individuals and the society as a whole, government loans - which are supposed to "help" - are a huge factor fueling ever-raising costs. The loans, in effect, subsidize the higher-education complex, rather than students. Many of us have been brainwashed to think that high…

> But it need not: all that great education requires are wise, passionate teachers and a bit of infrastructure: a whiteboard, a few books, and a laptop computer (with a couple of outliers). It's funny that a lot of the outliers are the degrees that can actually help you with financial stability later. Universities love humanity courses, exactly for the reasons you point out. It's easy to shoehorn a couple more underg…

At least in CS, more expensive hardware/software is often either donated, or part of a research grant.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#330

Post by snarf21 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:16 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #301

This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. While the idea of helping people become more educated is obviously beneficial to both individuals and the society as a whole, government loans - which are supposed to "help" - are a huge factor fueling ever-raising costs. The loans, in effect, subsidize the higher-education complex, rather than students. Many of us have been brainwashed to think that high…

Add to that students have "suites" with private bedrooms and shared living space. Add to that meal plans with all you can eat Nutella and endless options. That money has to come from somewhere. It used to be old buildings with one block wall room with a set of bunks and two crappy desks. It has become an arms race and the parents have helped this along by indulging their kids. A lot of this debt is the parents paying. You can't get $60K per year of loans for an undergrad degree as the student. Plus you have small liberal arts schools that cost more than Harvard (yeah, I know they need no money) to get a BA in literature and then do what......? Complain you can't get a job?