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Japanese writing system basics

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Re: Japanese writing system basics

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard Mandarin (especially Beijing dialect) pronunciation of shí is much closer to the American pronunciation of "sure"†, though, so shít would be pronounced more like "shirt". (Sorry to ruin the joke.) †IPA something like this: /ʃɝ/

A technical correction. In Mandarin, shí is pronounced very close to the sound of "shi" in ship and "shee" in sheep. You are right that it sounds close to "sure" when it is pronounced by people with strong Beijing dialect.

Um. Modern Standard Mandarin pronunciation is based on Beijing dialect, and it doesn't take a Beijing accent to pronounce it like "sure", that's totally standard. Beijing dialect does feature more erhua than other dialects, but even 哪儿 is considered standard, not specific to Beijing dialect. There are definitely dialects (mostly southern iirc) that pronounce shi as in "ship", but that's not Standard Mandarin. Every television show I've seen, for example, pronounces it like "sure".

Edit: To add a clear example, look at 事. Standard Mandarin would pronounce it "sure", Beijing dialect goes even further and pronounces it more like "shar".

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to explain. In English, spelling, pronunciation, and meaning are all more or less interrelated, right? In Japanese, writing (kanji) correlates to pronunciation and to meaning, but pronunciation and meaning are mostly unrelated to each other. Kanji is what disambiguates them. So, obviously learning 1000 kanji isn't easy. But doing that is what makes it possible to learn 100,000+ words whose pronunciations an…

A lot of people think that and personally as someone fluent in Japanese (as a second, well rather something like fourth, language) I also sort of feel the same way. However if you look at it without the learned biases, there is a great example where a country with fairly similar language in terms of grammar and sounds that had used to use chinese characters switched to a phonetic alphabet and are not noticeably worse…

This has been brought up and replied to lots of places elsewhere on the page.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm not sure what world you have to live in for "three-mouthed monster" to be a more obvious meaning for that glyph than "stacked crates". But I think I might like to visit.

I see you haven't gotten to the 4th paragraph of TFA... "口" = mouth, not crate "品" is a stack of mouth characters

I read the whole article, thanks. Do you think it's possible that more than one square or rectangular thing may exist?

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#324
post #220
post #191

Yeah yeah, this all makes sense until you see 品, which isn't "a three-mouthed monster" but "goods". Languages are weird, man.

I interpret that character as "three boxes" so "goods" is a very intuitive translation :)

According to kanjinetworks.com that is, in fact, what the etymology boils down to:

> Square-shaped object (tripled) → high-quality goods spread throughout a protective container (compare 舗 and 販) → quality; counter for goods; (person's) character; grade; value.

http://www.kanjinetworks.com/eng/kanji-dictionary/online-kan...

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A technical correction. In Mandarin, shí is pronounced very close to the sound of "shi" in ship and "shee" in sheep. You are right that it sounds close to "sure" when it is pronounced by people with strong Beijing dialect.

Um. Modern Standard Mandarin pronunciation is based on Beijing dialect, and it doesn't take a Beijing accent to pronounce it like "sure", that's totally standard. Beijing dialect does feature more erhua than other dialects, but even 哪儿 is considered standard, not specific to Beijing dialect. There are definitely dialects (mostly southern iirc) that pronounce shi as in "ship", but that's not Standard Mandarin. Every t…

I would argue 事儿, the combination of two characters, are pronounced like "sure", in most Northern dialects. (Speaking strictly, some are dialects and some are accents. Let's skip this difference here since it doesn't matter to the current topic.)

Not all the people in television shows, including talk shows, speak Standard Mandarin. This is especially true in shows produced in the north. They adopt Beijing accent to certain degrees, which, more or less, leads to the erhua pronunciation.

For Standard Mandarin, listen to 新闻联播,the official news program from CCTV.

I notice that for non-native Chinese speakers whose mother tongue is Indo-European language, it sounds erhua pronunciation is easier for them than Standard Mandarin. If erhua pronunciation is pushed to extreme, it is called 大舌头。

Also erhua pronunciation is usually NOT used in very formal conditions, like presentation, etc. Some people regards erhua pronunciation as vulgar, except for very widely adopted cases.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um. Modern Standard Mandarin pronunciation is based on Beijing dialect, and it doesn't take a Beijing accent to pronounce it like "sure", that's totally standard. Beijing dialect does feature more erhua than other dialects, but even 哪儿 is considered standard, not specific to Beijing dialect. There are definitely dialects (mostly southern iirc) that pronounce shi as in "ship", but that's not Standard Mandarin. Every t…

I would argue 事儿, the combination of two characters, are pronounced like "sure", in most Northern dialects. (Speaking strictly, some are dialects and some are accents. Let's skip this difference here since it doesn't matter to the current topic.) Not all the people in television shows, including talk shows, speak Standard Mandarin. This is especially true in shows produced in the north. They adopt Beijing accent to c…

I've listened to 新闻联播, the way they pronounce shi sounds much closer to sure than to ship. It is somewhere in-between, and that vowel is more rhotic in Beijing dialect, but Standard Mandarin definitely still rhotacizes that vowel (especially compared to southern dialects where it isn't rhotacized at all).

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#327
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logographic systems have some major disadvantages: • It's possible to know how to say a word, but have no clue how to write it. This phenomenon is called character amnesia, and it affects most native speakers.[1] Phonetic languages allow you to write out a misspelled word, which readers can understand (or autocorrect can fix). • Likewise, it's possible to know what a symbol means, but have no idea how to pronounce it…

> It's possible to know how to say a word, but have no clue how to write it. > Likewise, it's possible to know what a symbol means, but have no idea how to pronounce it. As a second language learner of English I can attest that this is not just a problem of languages written in logographic systems:-) >The only aspect in which logographic systems win is information density. I vaguely remember a paper that claimed that…

People like to joke about English spelling, but see farther down-thread for examples of how bad things are in logographic systems. Even native-speaking PhDs can forget how to write words like "sneeze" or "toad". It's a failure mode that simply doesn't exist in phonetic languages (even ones as imperfect as English).

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but by "information density" I meant area on a page or screen, not digital bytes. In the thread you linked to, people correctly point out that digital information density depends on encoding and compression schemes matter far more than language.

The paper you're probably thinking of is A Cross-Language Perspective on Speech Information Rate[1][2], which (as the title indicates) studied spoken language, not written. Annoyingly, the study was widely misrepresented in the media. It found that languages with lower information density tended to have higher syllabic rates. That is: Spanish contained less information per syllable than English or Mandarin, but Spanish speakers spoke faster to make up for that. Most media summaries of the paper omitted an important finding: the compensations didn't balance out. Different languages had different information rates. In the study, English had the highest. The runner-up (French) was 10% slower. And Japanese was 30% slower at conveying information.

1. http://ohll.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/fulltext/pellegrino/Pellegrino_...

2. This blog post has a more accessible summarization of the data: https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/why-do-japanese-people-talk-...

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't quite see how Chinese is so terrible. It's a remarkably efficient mode of writing for a language filled with monosyllabic words and homophones. It is the opposite. A writing system that requires multiple years to learn is not "efficient".

It's more efficient if you have a lot of words with the same pronounciation.

In what way?

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#329
post #173

In Chinese 食 is pronounced shí. As someone who speaks Chinese, I got a chuckle out of reading 'put your favorite snack in your 口 and 食t it!' due to the association in my mind of that character and its Chinese pronunciation, immediately followed by a 't'.

Standard Mandarin (especially Beijing dialect) pronunciation of shí is much closer to the American pronunciation of "sure"†, though, so shít would be pronounced more like "shirt". (Sorry to ruin the joke.) †IPA something like this: /ʃɝ/

Yeah I know it's pronounced differently, but as someone who enjoys (sometimes strained) cross-language puns, it didn't stop me from finding it funny :-)

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#330
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also do not think that the Latin alphabet could be easily used for Japanese, [...] You stuck an extra “do not” in your sentence * * * As far as alphabets go, the Phoenician/Greek/Etruscan/Latin alphabet is pretty ad hoc and mediocre. But hey, it’s what we know. At this point, I think we’re stuck with it. Similar story for modern Hindu/Arabic/European numeral glyphs. Learning arithmetic would be noticeably simpler…

> As far as alphabets go, the Phoenician/Greek/Etruscan/Latin alphabet is pretty ad hoc and mediocre. But hey, it’s what we know. At this point, I think we’re stuck with it. You mix the whole development line of that Latin alphabet into one dismissive argument. I see lots of difference between the Phoenician and the Latin alphabet and FWIW, the Latin alphabet is quite versatile as its wide application shows. It wonde…

Writing a less dismissive / more serious argument about the Latin alphabet would take a few hundred pages. You’re right though, I’m not a speaker of (or expert in) ancient Phoenician, perhaps their alphabet was a bit better structured for that language (it looks pretty ad hoc though). I can primarily speak to the Latin alphabet’s irregularity and mediocrity for representing modern English/Spanish/etc., though it doesn’t seem to have been much better for Greek or Latin. Obviously it works well enough to be the practical anchor for written culture, and I can certainly imagine worse systems (little Egyptian-style pictographs for letters for example). But it’s hardly elegant or systematic. The ordering of the letters is also pretty much arbitrary, and has nothing to do with the separation between consonants and vowels, or the relationship between particular sounds.

For an example of a better designed alphabet, check out Korean Hangul.

* * *

The numerals 1, 2, 3 come from just writing strokes, like tally marks, which over time became connected in handwriting. The other numbers were mostly fairly arbitrary symbols, which morphed slowly over time with occasional replacements and swaps. Otherwise, the symbols have absolutely nothing to do with the numbers they represent or with the base ten number system. Overall, I’d say numbers 0 and 1 are pretty effective. The rest are a huge waste of potential.

Same story for the words/names used to represent the numbers. They are made of arbitrary sounds in arbitrary numbers of syllables, reveal nothing about the theoretical properties of the numbers, some of them are hard to say or easy to mistake, etc. Especially for numbers beyond ten, the names are irregular and confusing. This has a real practical impact. Counting is notably easier for Chinese speaking children than for English speakers.

> I don't think learning arithmetic would be much simpler with other numerals. Even the Romans could do it and they had one of the worst possible numerical systems.

In general, Romans did their arithmetic using little pebbles (“calculus”) on counting board (“abacus”), and used written symbols only for recording the output of their calculations. This made some types of computation very difficult (because using pebbles to record every step gets cumbersome), which helps explain why science has taken off in the past 500 years in Europe after we started developing better notational conventions and using Hindu–Arabic numerals and later decimal fractions, logarithms, etc.

My son is about 2 weeks old, so I can’t tell you yet how well he learns arithmetic using a different set of numerals. Ask me again in about 10 years.

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