David Cameron announces resignation • Hacker News Board

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#321

Post by sievebrain » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:53 PM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #215

sievebrain wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will respect that treaty. But, as all treaties, there is room for interpretation In other words you do not want the EU to respect the terms of the treaty. I guess you approve of Juncker. When asked why the Commission was not punishing France for failing to meet the fiscal discipline targets, his answer was "because it's France". Sharp rebuke from the Dutch swiftly followed.

> In other words you do not want the EU to respect the terms of the treaty. What part of the treaty spells the exact details? None. You have the right to leave, but not to drag your feet while you clarify your internal petty politics, hurting the rest of the EU. So, please leave. Now. Otherwise we'll make sure the interests of the EU are respected, above the interests of the UK. It is time to stop talking about UK in…

In fact the treaty allows for exactly that. There is nothing in the treaty about automatic invocation of the exit clause following a referendum. By "reinterpreting" the treaty to pretend there is, the EU would simply be violating it.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#322

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

geff82 wrote: post #42

He'll go down in history as one of the worst leaders the UK ever had. Which he already was before yesterday. By the way, if he let the people decide on such a super topic as leave/remain in the EU, why does he not let his people vote on whether they want total surveillance or not? If they want a police state? Why can't they decide on stuff that affects their daily lives in a potential negative way? Or will they ignor…

"Peace in our time."

-- Neville Chamberlain

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#323

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 8:00 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #197

This thread is political. Unlike the other thread about the referendum , it has derailed to name-calling.

The level of discourse is poor.

That said, what happens in a global financial center almost certainly will have impacts on Silicon Valley and the startup environment.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#324

Post by AnonymousPlanet » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 8:44 PM UTC

simonswords82 wrote: post #293

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the so-called scaremongering proves to be true (foreign investment shifting away from UK, etc.), I'm afraid, people like you will call it a conspiracy and a global plot facilitated by a vengeful EU.

Will I call it a conspiracy? That's very insightful of you, thanks for your fortune telling. There's going to be pain, but I have confidence that we'll get deals in place that on average over the next five to ten years will see things balance out.

Your comment raised a red flag for me, because "scaremongering in the UK press" implies some kind of concerted effort, a conspiracy, to subvert the truth. That is why I, probably unfairly, placed you in a certain camp.

Five to ten years is a very long time to bet on. I do not share your confidence. And it looks like you will have less than two years time to settle things. BTW, is that five to ten years with or without Scottish oil?

Just remember: if you're wrong, the people who voted for leave and those who advocated it are to blame, no one else. Not the EU, not "the experts", not the "scaremongerers".

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#325

Post by DanBC » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 8:59 PM UTC

junto wrote: post #319

DanBC wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure which UK you are living in The UK where waiting times for A&E are at the longest they've been for years; where waiting times for NHS consultant-led treatment are at the longest they've been since they introduced maximum wait times; where there are no in-patient MH beds for adults (seriously, just last week all adult inpatient MH beds in the country were occupied. (This significantly increases risk of suici…

That's nothing to do with the EU. That's years of neglect, lack of investment and poor management by a series of UK governments both Tory and Labour. If we want a good health service and good schools then we need to invest. There problem is the only way that is going to happen is if we borrow the money (Labour tried that - no thanks), or you raise taxes. Raising taxes political suicide, which no party wants to do, es…

No, I know it's nothing to do with the EU.

That's the point - people were told by Brexit that leaving the EU would free up £350m per week, and the money would be spent on NHS.

I know that was a lie, you know it was a lie, but many people believed them.

The Sustainability and Transformation Plans were looking rough before brexit. I dread to think what they'll be like now.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#326

Post by gonvaled » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #321

gonvaled wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In other words you do not want the EU to respect the terms of the treaty. What part of the treaty spells the exact details? None. You have the right to leave, but not to drag your feet while you clarify your internal petty politics, hurting the rest of the EU. So, please leave. Now. Otherwise we'll make sure the interests of the EU are respected, above the interests of the UK. It is time to stop talking about UK in…

In fact the treaty allows for exactly that. There is nothing in the treaty about automatic invocation of the exit clause following a referendum. By "reinterpreting" the treaty to pretend there is, the EU would simply be violating it.

So, let me understand what you are saying: you are saying that, while the markets are in turmoil, the policical functioning of the EU is blocked, and the very existence of the EU is in question, the EU is politely going to wait until the british politians sort their internal affairs?

We can not legally trigger article 50, but we can LEGALLY do lots of things, including putting huge amount of political and economic pressure on the UK to STAND for your decissions.

You have voted leave, so please leave. You have two years to negotiate a deal, so start now.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#327

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 9:21 PM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #326

sievebrain wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact the treaty allows for exactly that. There is nothing in the treaty about automatic invocation of the exit clause following a referendum. By "reinterpreting" the treaty to pretend there is, the EU would simply be violating it.

So, let me understand what you are saying: you are saying that, while the markets are in turmoil, the policical functioning of the EU is blocked, and the very existence of the EU is in question, the EU is politely going to wait until the british politians sort their internal affairs? We can not legally trigger article 50, but we can LEGALLY do lots of things, including putting huge amount of political and economic pr…

> We can not legally trigger article 50, but we can LEGALLY do lots of things, including putting huge amount of political and economic pressure on the UK to STAND for your decissions.

The UK government -- the entity that would leave the EU -- has not made a decision to stand by (except a decision to hold a legal nonbinding referendum.) The only thing that was absolutely contingent on the referendum was the package of new arrangements for Britain the EU had approved.

No doubt, Britain will have a government soon that will invoke Article 50, but it is in the interest of Britain, the rest of the EU, and the long-term health of the markets for that to be a government with a clear policy and vision for an exit that can work with the EU on a minimally disruptive exit agreement, and the Cameron government absolutely is not that government.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#328

Post by gonvaled » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 9:24 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #327

gonvaled wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let me understand what you are saying: you are saying that, while the markets are in turmoil, the policical functioning of the EU is blocked, and the very existence of the EU is in question, the EU is politely going to wait until the british politians sort their internal affairs? We can not legally trigger article 50, but we can LEGALLY do lots of things, including putting huge amount of political and economic pr…

> We can not legally trigger article 50, but we can LEGALLY do lots of things, including putting huge amount of political and economic pressure on the UK to STAND for your decissions. The UK government -- the entity that would leave the EU -- has not made a decision to stand by (except a decision to hold a legal nonbinding referendum.) The only thing that was absolutely contingent on the referendum was the package of…

> There is nothing in the treaty about automatic invocation of the exit clause following a referendum

Sure there is not. The details are necessarily vague, since it is not possible to know the exact situation in which a withdrawal from the union is done. It can be a referndum or any other process. But the vote is clear: you have chosen to leave.

> The UK government -- the entity that would leave the EU -- has not made a decision to stand by (except a decision to hold a legal nonbinding referendum.)

Up to now I have not heard a single politian (british, EU or otherwise) which puts into question whether the UK is going to leave or not.

But it seems that instead of accepting the consequences of your decissions, you have started to play internal politics (actually the same petty politics which brought about this disaster). But frankly, the EU is not interested in your petty internal quarrels anymore. All EU politicians seem to agree too: they want to start negotiations asap.

> that can work with the EU on a minimally disruptive exit agreement

Let me quote here Mr. Juncker (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683042/EU-referendum-Brexit...):

> Talking from Brussels after an emergency meeting with EU leaders, Mr Juncker told Britain the other 27 member states wanted to negotiate its exit plan “as soon as possible, however painful this process will be”

We do not care if it suits you or not. Just go.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#329

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 9:32 PM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #328

dragonwriter wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can not legally trigger article 50, but we can LEGALLY do lots of things, including putting huge amount of political and economic pressure on the UK to STAND for your decissions. The UK government -- the entity that would leave the EU -- has not made a decision to stand by (except a decision to hold a legal nonbinding referendum.) The only thing that was absolutely contingent on the referendum was the package of…

> There is nothing in the treaty about automatic invocation of the exit clause following a referendum Sure there is not. The details are necessarily vague, since it is not possible to know the exact situation in which a withdrawal from the union is done. It can be a referndum or any other process. But the vote is clear: you have chosen to leave. > The UK government -- the entity that would leave the EU -- has not mad…

> Up to now I have not heard a single politian which puts into question whether the UK is going to leave or not.

There is a difference between a consensus among politicians and a decision of the government; the UK is almost certain to leave, and to invoke Article 50 in the near future, but no British government has actually made a decision to do that.

But it doesn't benefit anyone -- the EU as much as the UK -- for there not to be a consistent hand at the wheel for the exit negotiations.

> But it seems that instead of accepting the consequences of your decissions

As an American who thinks the Brexit is a ill-considered idea, they aren't my decisions.

> But frankly, the EU is not interested in your petty internal quarrels anymore. All EU politicians seem to agree too: they want to start negotiations asap.

With whom? The present government of the UK doesn't represent the will of the people who voted to leave. That seems to be a big part of why Cameron is leaving -- the referendum was, in clear message if not in the formal, parliamentary sense, a vote of no confidence in both the present government and even the institutional party system in the UK, as much as it was a vote against the UK's future in the EU.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#330

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 9:45 PM UTC

adwf wrote: post #136

Angostura wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't just to silence opposition within his own party. It was also to stop the haemorrhaging of support from all mainstream parties towards UKIP. It was a reasonable gamble that failed.

Yes, people forget that he'd already had two MPs jump ship to UKIP. If he hadn't promised a referendum the party would've split down the middle. What I don't get, and didn't get with the Scots referendum either, is why on earth they didn't require a super-majority? Surely with something as critical as this, you'd want a bit more convincing than a 2% margin? It doesn't have to be a 3/4ths or even 2/3rds, but a 60.1/39…

> Yes, people forget that he'd already had two MPs jump ship to UKIP. If he hadn't promised a referendum the party would've split down the middle.

Arguably, allowing a partisan realignment wherein people would vote for representatives balancing views on the EU with other policy concerns would have been healthier for the nation (if more disruptive to the elites of the existing major parties) than trying to preserve the existing party structure by splitting out the EU issue to a referendum.

And, it probably would have been more likely to succeed at keeping the UK in the EU.