Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 333 posts

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#321

Post by sevensor »

ethanbond wrote: post #318
studentrob wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You make it clear in your first sentence that you don't think there's anything wrong with the university system, and that the institution is an innocent victim here. On the other hand, I think there's plenty wrong with the system. American students already know by their college years that cheating has immediate negative consequences Why should the college need to hold the hand of foreign students who haven't been t…

Yeah, I'm not sure what GP thinks prevents rampant cheating from American students. It's not elaborate cheat detection systems — most students don't cheat simply because they choose not to. And to act like this isn't a problem unique to Chinese students is a cop out. Culturally, there just isn't the same overwhelmingly negative view of cheating, and that difference is seeping through GP's justifications themselves de…

I don't think anything prevents rampant cheating by American students. The difference is that American students do a lot of things that don't feel like cheating to them. For example, fraternities sharing libraries of old exams and problem sets, versus outright plagiarism and ringers sitting for exams.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#322

Post by ethanbond »

sevensor wrote: post #321
ethanbond wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm not sure what GP thinks prevents rampant cheating from American students. It's not elaborate cheat detection systems — most students don't cheat simply because they choose not to. And to act like this isn't a problem unique to Chinese students is a cop out. Culturally, there just isn't the same overwhelmingly negative view of cheating, and that difference is seeping through GP's justifications themselves de…

I don't think anything prevents rampant cheating by American students. The difference is that American students do a lot of things that don't feel like cheating to them. For example, fraternities sharing libraries of old exams and problem sets, versus outright plagiarism and ringers sitting for exams.

The research establishes that virtually everyone cheats "just a little bit," and I think that sharing backwork falls under that "little bit" in most circumstances. At least at my school, backwork is demonstrably different seeing as one of the service fraternities officially, publicly distributes backwork for students to check out/scan/return. Some of the old exams are actually contributed by the professors themselves.

Crucially, the amount of effort necessary to combat backwork sharing, should a professor see it as a problem, is pretty miniscule. I've taken numerous classes that either had no backwork available (hand-counting the number of tests given to the class), or that had totally useless backwork (changing the test format).

Compare that to combatting students hiring test takers and paper writers?

I know tons of students who utilize backwork, very very few who use unauthorized resources (e.g. cellphones) during exams (I've seen it happen once maybe twice), and no one who would ever consider a ringer. Do you really believe that these are all of the same severity and total damage to academic integrity?

Regardless of whatever anecdata either of us can come up with, there are substantial cultural differences on this topic, isn't there? That's a serious question – I've always been led to believe that's the case, but I'm not an expert on Chinese culture by any stretch.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#323

Post by studentrob »

sevensor wrote: post #321
ethanbond wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm not sure what GP thinks prevents rampant cheating from American students. It's not elaborate cheat detection systems — most students don't cheat simply because they choose not to. And to act like this isn't a problem unique to Chinese students is a cop out. Culturally, there just isn't the same overwhelmingly negative view of cheating, and that difference is seeping through GP's justifications themselves de…

I don't think anything prevents rampant cheating by American students. The difference is that American students do a lot of things that don't feel like cheating to them. For example, fraternities sharing libraries of old exams and problem sets, versus outright plagiarism and ringers sitting for exams.

> I don't think anything prevents rampant cheating by American students

The system prevents it. Cheating has consequences at lower levels of American schools. In China, for the most part, it doesn't. Gifts buy good grades. The whole idea of getting into a good school based on your merits is subverted.

The documentary Education, Education, about private colleges within China, shows what happens to poor families with this mindset [1]. They end up paying for schools that aren't really that good, and then they become part of what's become known as the Ant Tribe (蚁族),

> Lian Si (廉思), then a postdoctoral researcher at Peking University, coined the term "ant tribe" to draw a comparison between the lives of these college graduates and ants: "They share every similarity with ants. They live in colonies in cramped areas. They're intelligent and hardworking, yet anonymous and underpaid." [2]

The same thing happens in for-profit universities in the US. The film College, Inc documents this [3].

The degree of cheating by Asians is out of control. The entire SAT is being published. See the 3 minute video "Reused and Abused: How the test-prep industry games the SAT" [4]

[1] https://youtu.be/BP61LwODTnY

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant_tribe

[3] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/collegeinc/

[4] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-s...

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#324

Post by sevensor »

ethanbond wrote: post #322
sevensor wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anything prevents rampant cheating by American students. The difference is that American students do a lot of things that don't feel like cheating to them. For example, fraternities sharing libraries of old exams and problem sets, versus outright plagiarism and ringers sitting for exams.

The research establishes that virtually everyone cheats "just a little bit," and I think that sharing backwork falls under that "little bit" in most circumstances. At least at my school, backwork is demonstrably different seeing as one of the service fraternities officially, publicly distributes backwork for students to check out/scan/return. Some of the old exams are actually contributed by the professors themselves…

I think there's more than one cultural difference at work here. It's not just that there are cultural differences between the U.S. and China, but that there are generational cultural differences between you and me. It's been almost 20 years since I was an undergraduate. Back then, at my institution anyhow, sharing old exams that weren't publicly posted was considered deeply dishonest. As bad as having a ringer sit the exam for you. I was deeply shocked when, as a senior, I finally learned about the fraternities' libraries. Certainly, I was naive at the time. But my point is that, however you want to rationalize the practice of sharing old exams, it gives an unfair leg up to people who have access.

At any rate, I thank you for the discussion. I'm going to be away from the internet for the weekend, so I'll yield the floor and read any further responses later.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#325

Post by studentrob »

fatman13gg wrote: post #320
studentrob wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand 100%. I feel that way about a lot of things I try in life =) How are you doing now? By the way, I just watched a documentary about this kind of thing happening in China [1]. One American version of that story is a documentary named College, Inc [2] [1] https://youtu.be/BP61LwODTnY [2] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/collegeinc/

Good Sharing. I come from a tier 1 city in China. The struggle people in [1] have seems very distant to me. I think they are good people, but they are just too naive to think they could get decent office jobs with such low grades. (At 5:37, it mentioned the girl only got 388 points for National Entrance Exam. It was terrible.) They might be better suited for a blue collar job or a service sector job (waiter/waitress…

Your story reminds me of how Americans view international students who enter American schools with minimal ability to speak English. We wonder what they are doing there.

I have an idea about why you did not find a job in America.. consider,

Many international students cheat on the SAT to either (a) get into good schools or (b) get good grades at those schools [1]. Employers filter resume/CV's based on good schools and good grades.

When an employer identifies that he/she has interviewed or hired someone who is not as good as their resume/CV indicates, the employer looks for a pattern. In short, H-1B's become risky hires for smaller businesses who don't have the time to sift through many CV's.

The rampant cheating in [1] hurts your chances of landing an interview, and it may also have an impact on the number of H-1B's set by the government. If existing H-1B holders are not measurably adding enough value to the American GDP, then there's no reason to increase the number given out.

---------------------------

> And yes, I probably have better resources than those unfortunate.

Right, exactly. There's nobody to tell the mother that this new school is probably not worth the money they're paying for it

> But guess who had paid the price? My great grandparents.

No doubt your ancestors worked hard. That was 100 years ago. Times have changed and we are better off focusing on today.

I suggest the following is always true:

Society is about more than helping just your family. Society is protection and support for a larger group so you can enjoy friends and relationships outside your family in relative safety. Some tax money goes to military and police who maintain order and prevent crime. Some taxes go towards educating the poor.

When a society focuses more on police and less on education, the poor stay poor. If the poor stay poor for too long, they believe less in themselves and become less productive members of society.

Education and police are more efficient when in balance. The poor manufacture everything. People need each other, and the rich need the poor as much as the poor need the rich.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#326

Post by studentrob »

ethanbond wrote: post #319
chuckcode wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. And this article could just as easily be run with the headline "Schools do almost nothing to stop known cheating" which would make for more bad press.

And what exactly should they do? Require students to bring two forms of ID to each test? Require students to sit in Faraday cages during exams? Isolation rooms? A school can't prevent cheating outright and it's lame to act like it's the school's fault when American and European students understand just fine that cheating is simply wrong and disallowed. If a student wants to cheat, s/he will cheat. The fact that there…

> And what exactly should they do? Require students to bring two forms of ID to each test? Require students to sit in Faraday cages during exams? Isolation rooms?

The first article in this series talks about how the SAT is being gamed overseas [1]. The article makes a strong case that a unique copy of the SAT should be administered each time the test is given.

As it is right now, the College Board / ETS reuses the tests to some degree. This 3 minute video is a good summary of the situation [2]

The podcast How to Game the SAT is also enlightening [3]

There are people working on this problem. There is also an alternate test called ACT which has stricter requirements for testing in China.

Supposedly, the College Board, which creates and administers the SAT, is afraid that if it gives the SAT less often then it will give up market-share to the ACT test.

There could be a real opportunity here for some startup that can help either of these testing agencies securely administer tests overseas.

The SAT cancelled a test date in January due to concerns the test they were going to use had already been released on the internet. Then they gave a test in March and found its questions on the internet hours afterwards.

I imagine we'll see more updates from these reporters in the coming months / years. It's a tough problem.

[1] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-s...

[2] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-s...

[3] https://soundcloud.com/reuters/howtogamethesat

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#327

Post by jowiar »

ascorbic wrote: post #173
jchiu1106 wrote: post #133

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence. They (and their parents most likely) see it…

I understand your frustration. The difference is at least clear to most other students, even if it's not so clear elsewhere. When I attended university in the UK about ten years ago, about 1/3 of the students on my course were Chinese. Unfortunately I reckon the majority of these were suspect. Many could barely speak English, and when doing group work would contribute to the written work in broken English, but then m…

In my case, when doing group work multiple Chinese students submitted things copy-pasted from Wikipedia. I turned them in. No sanctions. I barely value the paper my degrees are printed on as a result, and I'm hesitant to hire from CMU as a result.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#328

Post by JoeAltmaier »

studentrob wrote: post #308
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and 30 students out of 30,000 is a tiny drop in the bucket. Just putting it into perspective.

2,797 are Chinese international students [1]. 30 is 1% of this demographic > Today, the University of Iowa, one of the largest state universities in the American Midwest, says it is investigating at least 30 students suspected of cheating. Three sources familiar with the inquiry say the number under investigation may be two or three times higher. So, it could be 2% or 3% The cheaters are not representative of all PRC…

...and 30 is 100% of 30. You can make up any bogus statistic you like by cherry-picking the population.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#329

Post by fatman13gg »

studentrob wrote: post #325
fatman13gg wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good Sharing. I come from a tier 1 city in China. The struggle people in [1] have seems very distant to me. I think they are good people, but they are just too naive to think they could get decent office jobs with such low grades. (At 5:37, it mentioned the girl only got 388 points for National Entrance Exam. It was terrible.) They might be better suited for a blue collar job or a service sector job (waiter/waitress…

Your story reminds me of how Americans view international students who enter American schools with minimal ability to speak English. We wonder what they are doing there. I have an idea about why you did not find a job in America.. consider, Many international students cheat on the SAT to either (a) get into good schools or (b) get good grades at those schools [1]. Employers filter resume/CV's based on good schools an…

> I have an idea about why you did not find a job in America.. consider,

I worked as a programmer in States for 2 years. I decided to go back on my own will.

> If existing H-1B holders are not measurably adding enough value to the American GDP, then there's no reason to increase the number given out.

And I am not complaining the number of H1-B visa. In fact, I think the current policy works okay.

What I was suggesting was that people cheated their way out of U.S. colleges would most likely spend zero effort looking for jobs in States. Their goal was to get the degree so that their parents could have reasons to put them in some position back in home.

All in all, both group (kids in [1] and kids in the article) were doing very poorly academically in China. And all their struggles wouldn't be such a big deal if they just learn their places in the society.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#330

Post by studentrob »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #328
studentrob wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2,797 are Chinese international students [1]. 30 is 1% of this demographic > Today, the University of Iowa, one of the largest state universities in the American Midwest, says it is investigating at least 30 students suspected of cheating. Three sources familiar with the inquiry say the number under investigation may be two or three times higher. So, it could be 2% or 3% The cheaters are not representative of all PRC…

...and 30 is 100% of 30. You can make up any bogus statistic you like by cherry-picking the population.

Lol. It is not cherry picking.

The goal of this article is not to argue that cheating is part of Chinese culture. The goal is to identify a problem so that society can correct it. The problem is, there are a significant number of businesses that help Chinese students cheat.

The problem is widescale. SAT questions are regularly being shared online [1]

3 minute video [2]

Further details by podcast [3]

The article does not say that non-Chinese students do not cheat. Again, it is focused on a particular brand of cheating because the source of that problem can be traced. Its roots are in businesses that are sharing SAT questions. These researchers have identified that this information is often found on Chinese websites.

This is basic problem solving 101, not racism. Identify the source of cheating in each case, whether it's fraternities, or students from china, india, or south korea, and put a stop to each one.

That's the way we curb this behavior. Research an issue, get evidence, share information, hold a hearing where all parties can state their case, and give feedback to the offenders in the form of consequences.

The more publicly known this process is, the more future students will know what lies ahead when they cheat.

[1] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-s...

[2] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-s...

[3] https://soundcloud.com/reuters/howtogamethesat

Post reply on HN