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Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

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Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#321

Post by hk__2 »

courtewing wrote: post #162
hk__2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homebrew maintainer here. Remember that we didn’t put these analytics in place to get rich or get free beer at the local pub. Screwing up the stats won’t help anyone. We currently don’t have any overview of our userbase; we don’t even know how many people use Homebrew. More importantly, Homebrew currently only bottles the default options but we know some people use some options that cause the formulae to build from s…

Out of curiosity, would the homebrew maintainers be open to replacing google analytics with an open source setup if the infrastructure was sponsored?

I can’t speak for all the team here but yes that’s something we’d consider. Someone suggested Keen IO on the issues tracker which is not open-source but it’s the only viable alternative that has been proposed so far, and it’s not from Google so some people would be more happy with that.

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#322

Post by socketsAPI »

You know what homebrew team : you guys are providing a great tool here and you should really charge for it. Take out the analytics stuff, cause no one cares if it helps you or makes it easier for you to improve software that you write for free on your own time. No one cares that it'll take you more time to improve this great tool without the analytics. No one cares that it'll cost you money to use another service besides Google Analytics. We don't want you to spend time or money that you don't have either, just don't bother doing updates or improving it, it's pretty good the way that it is. But honestly, the fact that I can do a clean install of OSX and install my entire dev environment + favorite apps in about 3 minutes VS going to each individual site, having each of them (most likely) collect data about me, have to download them individually, and then install them individually -- is DEFINITELY worth some extra money in your pocket! Charge me a couple bucks, I'll gladly pay you for it. Heck, I'm going to go donate now + wait to get charged. ALSO: Don't let me know TOO much, all the details make me think I can't trust you! And you made the opt-out directions too hard.. you mean I have to do extra work that will take 15 SECONDS OR LESS out of my day to opt-out?.. NO! You do more work, don't make things easy on yourself OR me, that's not cool, you can just start charging me for it. =P. Keep up the good work!

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#323

Post by tremon »

mescalito wrote: post #320
tremon wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's open source it should be opt-in? Because the sending of data to a third party is not directly related to the functioning of the software. Analytics are a valuable source of information for the developer Yet it's not the developer's data, it's the users' data. you probably use several closed source tools that track you, sometimes without even telling you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum…

Nice links, that's why I like comments. Ok, let's don't state it as an argument, but rather as a question. Do anyone that's so much against opt-in is aware of closed source tools that tracks you and use it anyway? And.. Do you use any third party web service like gmail or any other? Although I hardly think I'll get an answer from most. At some point you have to make assumptions, wether those are fallacies, ok. It's t…

Do anyone that's so much against opt-in is aware of closed source tools that tracks you and use it anyway?

And..

Do you use any third party web service like gmail or any other?

I can only answer for myself, and it's no to both, with caveats. I do have a hotmail account, but I only use it for subscriptions to public mailing lists. I've had it for over 20 years, and stopped using it for private correspondence around 2005. I also have an Android phone, but it's not activated (as in, I never gave it any credentials to log in to any Google services, and I do not have a mobile data plan). Any application I need is sideloaded, or installed with F-Droid.

The rest of my networked machines are running Debian, OpenWRT or NetBSD. I do have a Windows (8.1) VM on my work laptop, but that VM is switched off unless I get paid to use it.

It's true it's not directly related to the functioning of the software, but it improves it in anyway, then there's a connection with it.

It's not a given to any specific user that sharing their data will improve the software in areas that the user cares about. Nor is it a certainty that not sharing leads to the software not improving in those areas.

There definitely is a case to be made that more accurate metrics will allow the developers to make more focused decisions, and I don't think anyone is arguing against that. That's not what the argument is about. The question is whether the developers' need for data is sufficient justification to hand over their users' data to the biggest aggregator of personal data on the planet, and whether it is justifiable to do so without the user's knowledge (the primary reason for opt-in is because it's the easiest way to unambiguously ascertain consent).

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#324

Post by KenoFischer »

mikemcquaid wrote: post #193

I'm the maintainer who added this. I apologise for the poor communication. I would have responded sooner but I've been on a plane for the last 10 hours. I'd hoped the documentation would have made clear our reasons for doing this but I feel the discomfort so since getting off my flight I've opened and merged three PRs ( https://github.com/Homebrew/install/pull/42 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/pull/143 https://gith…

Since there is a lot of negative comments here, let me add the counterpoint here that I am totally fine with this. For me, any time saved by enabling you guys to build better software is well worth it. Thanks!

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#325

Post by andrei_says_ »

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #125
andrei_says_ wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have little snitch and can verify that everything talks to the Internet all of the time :(

Only if you let them. I have installed little snitch and the only applications that have unlimited access to the Internet (all servers on port 80/443) are my web browsers. The other applications barely have access to their on servers (only if I find it necessary for them to auto-check for updates) let alone google analytics. To achieve the best security, you should disable most bultin rules or customize them yourself…

Many of the requests come from various services that I don't feel knowledgeable enough to disable. Like gamed, iTunes etc. no easy way to figure out if something is phoning home or a (close to) critical OS X service.

Could you point to a source which would help me educate myself?

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#326

Post by Matt3o12_ »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #325
Matt3o12_ wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you let them. I have installed little snitch and the only applications that have unlimited access to the Internet (all servers on port 80/443) are my web browsers. The other applications barely have access to their on servers (only if I find it necessary for them to auto-check for updates) let alone google analytics. To achieve the best security, you should disable most bultin rules or customize them yourself…

Many of the requests come from various services that I don't feel knowledgeable enough to disable. Like gamed, iTunes etc. no easy way to figure out if something is phoning home or a (close to) critical OS X service. Could you point to a source which would help me educate myself?

Well, blocking OS X from phoning home is probably impossible or at best very dangerous (because you block all of OS X's anti-virus blacklists).

But most other processes are easy to block. The first thing you should do is check the name of the process. If it is something like iTunes, you need to ask yourself if you want iTunes to have Internet (do you want Apple Music/radio, wifi sync, and the iTunes Store? If not, just block all ports/servers for iTunes. If you only want Wifi sync, enable connections to the local network only (best do it manually in the rule settings). If you want iTunes to have Internet, I'd allow port 80 and 443 to apple servers and apples CDN (you will end up having ~15 rules, just allow the servers as you see fit and when prompted). Since iTunes is from Apple, it uses some system services to communicate with iCloud additionally, by default they are all enabled and you don't have to do anything. All essential system processes are allowed by default. I personally disabled most of them since I don't need most of them. Let's have a look at gamed. gamed is a system process to communicate with the Game Center services. If you want Game Center to work, you will also need to enable this process. You can learn that by yourself if you click at the question mark on the bottom left corner when an alert pops up. It shows additional information for all system applications, and most popular apps. If it says that this process is needed for Game Center but you don't play any games on your Mac, it is safe to disable.

You can do that for all processes and eventually work out a list with trusted services and applications. I personally often only allow some applications Internet to port 80 and 443 and only if I know the apps really need it. If you don't trust the app at all, you should update it manually (by downloading the newest version on their website).

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#327

Post by alirazaq »

developer2 wrote: post #216
javajosh wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be opt-in, not opt-out.

Man, the privacy critics really come out of the woodwork every single time "opt-out" is mentioned, regardless of the actual facts for a specific situation. The developers explicitly state they set the anonymous IP address flag. There is nothing that links back to you as a person. Are you really concerned that the developers know which packages a random, unknown person has installed? Crying "opt-in" to every single li…

If you can't verify that Google are actually anonymizing the data then you can't claim this is "completely harmless". I don't trust Google and this requires me to. Is that unreasonable to you?

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#328

Post by ThisIs_MyName »

pdkl95 wrote: post #311
ThisIs_MyName wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they should indemnify the subjects of their spying against any damages those caused by those "external threats" I despise GA as much as the next guy, but you'd have to be pretty crazy to expect any business to provide such a guarantee. Google isn't your insurance company.

I don't really expect that anyone would make that kind of guarantee; I'm arguing in the style of a proof by contradiction. These businesses shouldn't be making this kind of claim, and they shouldn't be holding onto data beyond what is necessary . Data should be expunged as soon as possible, because then there isn't anything to protect. Businesses are acting like there is no risk in holding personal information. When…

>I don't really expect that anyone would make that kind of guarantee

Yet you do seem to expect that guarantee:

> An honest business that actually believed in their own promises shouldn't have problem putting those promises into a formal guarantee.

You can't use such guarantees to vet businesses because no sane company would meet your requirements!

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#329

Post by andrei_says_ »

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #326
andrei_says_ wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the requests come from various services that I don't feel knowledgeable enough to disable. Like gamed, iTunes etc. no easy way to figure out if something is phoning home or a (close to) critical OS X service. Could you point to a source which would help me educate myself?

Well, blocking OS X from phoning home is probably impossible or at best very dangerous (because you block all of OS X's anti-virus blacklists). But most other processes are easy to block. The first thing you should do is check the name of the process. If it is something like iTunes, you need to ask yourself if you want iTunes to have Internet (do you want Apple Music/radio, wifi sync, and the iTunes Store? If not, ju…

~15 rules per service is what I'm having trouble with. Lots of expertise to acquire and apply.
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