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Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

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Re: Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

#321

We need open protocols. Then let a thousand clients with different paradigms bloom

For reasons that have never been entirely clear to me, chat has been reinvented more times than perhaps any other common Internet utility, and every time it is, there are no shortage of investors lined up for it. I think the cycle is largely driven by fashion, as youth get online and demand chat apps that are distinct (if not different in any meaningful functional way) from the existing ones.

I have the same thought. Heck, voice and video chat, file sharing, even primitive forms of 'integrations' (in the form of IRC bots and the like) have been around for many years at this point.

I remember the Yahoo messengers and the MSN messengers of yore having a majority of the features that I see in the modern chat clients. It really perplexes me that these new chat services are apparently worth so much money.

Yes, you took some trends and put everything into a convenient package. Is that alone worth billions of dollars? The actual technical innovation is minimal.

Re: Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I use XMPP every day. All my friends are on XMPP. What makes you think XMPP is dead? What are "various reasons"? Well, it failed to be the preferred solution for its problem domain, and is universally ignored by big players. Google also killed Talk in favor of Hangouts (and the later doesn't talk to XMPP).

The thing is that Google moved from XMPP to something proprietary specifically to avoid federation. The big players don't want federation and any protocol will suffer the same fate unless it becomes popular without reliance on the big players. I think it is fair to say that XMPP isn't any more dead than any other protocol in this respect.

An interesting point. There was a similar issue with SMS (federating with big telcos), and Whatsapp (among others) did a nice job of routing around that (by piggybacking on SMS). It's interesting to think about how a genuinely open player might route around that.

For example, suppose you want to send an IM to your friend. You believe in XMPP or some other open/federated protocol, but you don't know which friends use the protocol. Piggyback off email. Note that identities are backed by email. Also, if any identity-providers refuse to join the federation, then route through a trusted fallback service (Trent.com). Pseudocode:

function send_im(toEmailAddr, messageText) { // See if the user's domain already supports OpenChatProto. if (nslookup(toEmailAddr.hostname, 'SRV', 'OpenChatProto')) return OpenChatProto.deliver(toEmailAdrr, messageText);

  // If user's domain doesn't support it, see if the user has
  // registered+authenticated with a trusted third-party.
  var proxyAddr = http.get('https://trent.com/proxyAddr?email='+toEmailAddr + authCode);
  if (proxyAddr) {
    return OpenChatProto.deliver(proxyAddr, messageText);
  }

  // If the user doesn't exist in OpenChatProto, then
  // fallback to email.
  var emailText 
    = messageText
    + "To continue this discussion in real-time chat, go to:"
    + "https://trent.com/setup?email=" + toEmailAddr + authCode
    + "To block messages from this person, go to:"
    + "https://trent.com/optout?email=" + toEmailAddr + senderEmail + authCode
    + "To opt-out of all messages, go to:"
    + "https://trent.com/optout?email=" + toEmailAddr + authCode

  Email.deliver(toEmailAddr, emailText);
}

Note: It's most efficient if members of the federation agree on the identity of trent.com, but it's not required. Any outbound MTA could use a different Trent, but that fragments the brand and identity databases.

This feels pretty obvious, so maybe it's already being done or I'm missing something...

Re: Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

#324

A hundred different chat systems mentioned here. None of them compatible with one another. Well, I guess a couple of them have IRC gateways, but you have to actually set those up. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if you could pick and choose your UI? Pick and choose your "integrations", your "plugins", your client, etc without having to lose your entire userbase, history, contacts? Some sort of open protocol. Urgh, I've been…

Make a good irc client

Re: Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

#325

A hundred different chat systems mentioned here. None of them compatible with one another. Well, I guess a couple of them have IRC gateways, but you have to actually set those up. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if you could pick and choose your UI? Pick and choose your "integrations", your "plugins", your client, etc without having to lose your entire userbase, history, contacts? Some sort of open protocol. Urgh, I've been…

Here's a timeline we put together of about 60 incompatible chat services: https://cdn.sameroom.io/chat-timeline.pdf Our service Sameroom ( https://sameroom.io ) is a commercial solution to the chat incompatibility disaster, not too different from an AC adapter thingy with a bunch of different plugs, one or two per continent. After implementing the protocols of quite a number of these systems (~20), we're seeing a sca…

How have you implemented skype?

Have you written a stand alone library which communicates with skype?

Re: Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

#326

A hundred different chat systems mentioned here. None of them compatible with one another. Well, I guess a couple of them have IRC gateways, but you have to actually set those up. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if you could pick and choose your UI? Pick and choose your "integrations", your "plugins", your client, etc without having to lose your entire userbase, history, contacts? Some sort of open protocol. Urgh, I've been…

I think Telepathy was ahead of its time. Shame it didn't get much adoption outside of Nokia and is now on life-support:

http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/

Re: Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you just need the AGPL

Yeah because if you open source something under the right license, no abuse happens... What percentage of GPL violators has the FSF prosecuted? Or anyone else for that matter?

The FSF isn't about prosecuting people, but about getting GPL compliance.

https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/principles.htm...

Unfortunately working on GPL compliance is expensive, I would encourage anyone who cares about copyleft to support the Software Freedom Conservancy's efforts.

https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/

Re: Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

#328

A hundred different chat systems mentioned here. None of them compatible with one another. Well, I guess a couple of them have IRC gateways, but you have to actually set those up. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if you could pick and choose your UI? Pick and choose your "integrations", your "plugins", your client, etc without having to lose your entire userbase, history, contacts? Some sort of open protocol. Urgh, I've been…

Here's a timeline we put together of about 60 incompatible chat services: https://cdn.sameroom.io/chat-timeline.pdf Our service Sameroom ( https://sameroom.io ) is a commercial solution to the chat incompatibility disaster, not too different from an AC adapter thingy with a bunch of different plugs, one or two per continent. After implementing the protocols of quite a number of these systems (~20), we're seeing a sca…

Facebook, Google chat and some others XMPP based were compatible and you could chat with Facebook users without having facebook account, but they closed their services making it all incompatible.

Re: Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

#329
post #83

A hundred different chat systems mentioned here. None of them compatible with one another. Well, I guess a couple of them have IRC gateways, but you have to actually set those up. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if you could pick and choose your UI? Pick and choose your "integrations", your "plugins", your client, etc without having to lose your entire userbase, history, contacts? Some sort of open protocol. Urgh, I've been…

We are actually trying to make open protocol in https://actor.im with federation with https://matrix.org . It seems that only Actor and Matrix understand importance of federation.

Can you make an open source Telepathy backend so I can use my existing IM client to connect to your network?

http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/

Re: Open Sourcers Race to Build Better Versions of Slack

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity: are you leveraging such software as spectrum (spectrum.im) and libpurple? These pieces seem to be a good fit for internal gears of your product. Good luck, you are working on an important problem.

Hi Andrey - we're not using spectrum.im or libpurple (but are aware of both). We saw that libpurple now supports Telegram, so we may borrow some ideas from them :) Thank you!

Please look at Telepathy too.
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