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We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

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Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#321

Post by ern »

draw_down wrote: post #227
ern wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You allude to a bigger problem: anyone outside the industry who looks at the hiring process for developers would be put off. I know anecdotally that the industry is struggling to get students interested in software development as a career, and good developers are loathe to leave their jobs. I don't blame either group. Would I want my kids to spend their careers being put through the wringer of multiple high-stakes in…

I don't disagree that we have our problems, but to me most industries seem worse to work in than ours. Not that we should stick up for ourselves but everything is terrible everywhere. Or you just don't get paid very much.

I wonder what the lifetime earnings of a new software developer/engineer would be, compared to other careers, especially for those that turn out to be non-rock stars in the medium to long term, which would be most. I suspect that the great earnings initially would plateau and be overtaken by careers where time in the game and cumulative experience are primary drivers of experience.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#322

Post by szx »

enraged_camel wrote: post #237
szx wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you suggest a better alternative? Then again, maybe it's time to stop looking for a one size fits all solution and acknowledge that (in an ideal world) we might want to have different processes for different candidates, depending on their life situation and/or individual priorities?

Ok, so what's your process for candidates who have families and/or can't/won't work on evenings and weekends?

What I was trying to imply (and obviously failed) is the traditional (interview based) hiring process would remain an option for those candidates.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#324

Post by MajorLOL »

kimdouglasmason wrote: post #286
dominotw wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Children are a life choice? You're part of the problem. Are they not though? Aren't you consciously choosing engage in this optional activity when you decide to have kids.

And there we go again. 'optional activity'. And people wonder why there are few women in tech and the situation is not improving. The post above is your answer. Have a family, it's the end of your career, because you engaged in productivity limiting 'optional activities'. Yes, the tech sector IS that toxic.

This is a case of "cake and eat it too" -

If you have a family it's more important than your career. If you don't feel your family is more important, you may abandon it or never have one to begin with. Just because you have a different stack of priorities than another doesn't mean you can blame them for ranking theirs differently than yours.

Analogy is; you wouldn't protest at the Buddhist temple door because you feel that your time availably is less to become a full fledge Buddhist monk because you have a family.

It has nothing to do with women in tech, try and keep on topic please.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#325

Post by shubb »

beat wrote: post #262
bad_user wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what the irony is? Us programmers thinking that "everyone can be a great programmer" is our preponderant liberal and very idealistic views showing. And we keep going around and shout that and other people believe it. And in turn we are being taken advantage of with long hours, unfair compensation for our contributions and the worse of it all? Ageism in our industry is rampant. I look at physicians, surgeons,…

Software engineers who "peak at 30" are not taking care of their careers. I'm over 50, haven't worked a full year anywhere in years. I contract or consult, and can usually find a new job lead in hours (or just deal with one of the many sitting in my inbox), and get hired in one (max two) interviews. And it's not because I'm a rocket surgeon. I know lots of software people who are eminently employable in their 50s and…

You're describing one of two routes people go.

Some people stay in a job for 15-20 years. They are a programmer for maybe 10 of those, but over time they grow into a niche, the company grows, and that becomes a job title.

Maybe they get called a project manager, or a product owner, head of QA or engineering or lead architect. Either way they aren't a programmer any more and they mostly manage something instead of doing - manage people, contracts, processes, customers...

And that's why programming has a pay ceiling - careerist programmers become something else, and footloose programmers become consultants and contractors and leave the regular pay figures.

The value of a good programmer probably becomes diminishing returns after a certain point. The best programmer in the world can't raise the sales of your web app past a point - if they do what it takes to do that they become something else, like a product manager. That point depends on the technical difficulty of the task and the size of the opportunity, but most code needs a good coder, not a great one, and beyond that it's all product fit, sales and luck.

I'm footloose too, and I'm noticing as I get older that the people interviewing me have often been in their job a long time. They bet on the company and became less flexible in the general labor market in return for better opportunities internally.

Honestly, when I work for them, I'm usually surprised how many normal things they don't know. Maybe they've never seen proper unit testing, or don't know what ITIL is, or think linux is still an immature product and you should stay safe with a microsoft stack.

But they know why the code is the way it is. They know what was tried in the past, and how it failed. And their boss has seen what they do in a crisis, which is much better than trusting someone unpredictable.

My suggestion to someone young, if you have the temperament, is to stay for up to a decade and grow into a new, higher value role. Then learn that until you know it well enough to get a job elsewhere and move before you stagnate.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#326

Post by hiram112 »

aetherson wrote: post #273
kafkaesq wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a sense, market worth of programmers does start to crest sharply by age 30 or 35, independent of intrinsic ability.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "market worth." Do you mean salary? Because if so, no. Do you mean something like "net value to company"? Then maybe. Another way to say that would be "you start to get paid what you're worth after 30 or 35."

I'm mid 30's and the salary cap is what I'm experiencing. Inversely, many of my friends in business, law, medical, etc. made less than I throughout their 20's and have now caught up, with potentials to earn far more.

For example, the lawyers I know are now making partner in firms, the business majors getting percentages based on sales and earnings.

I'm looking to become a consultant but the very idea of increasing pay with experience is foreign in the tech field, but standard in other professional trades. I believe offshoring, H1Bs, and lack of a professional association (AMA, bar, etc) is to blame.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#327

Post by sordina »

ryandrake wrote: post #54
Gyonka wrote: post #4

I really agree with the sentiment of audition projects. The interviews I have enjoyed the most all involved some sort of take-home project, although I have never been paid for one. On that note, how expensive does it become for a startup to dole out many interview projects across a wide range of candidates? I think a better strategy would be to conduct preliminary interviews and then based on some granularity, assign…

When you're looking for someone to install hardwood floors for you, do you ask them do the doghouse for you first, before you decide to hire him?

Maybe if you're a flooring company hiring flooring installation staff, you would ask for something like that.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#329

Post by sokoloff »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #288
sokoloff wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on Earth would salary be "grossed up" when paid as severance?

Why would anything ever be grossed up? Because the purpose of the payment is to give the recipient a particular amount of money, usually related to specific costs, not some amount less taxes. The costs of sustaining a job search after being fired are a bit different than the costs of living while you have a reliable income stream. The grossing-up part is meant to reflect a nominal amount of money to cover those kinds…

If I give an employee a $100 Amex gift card as a spot bonus, I do gross that up.

If I pay relocation expenses, I require receipts (at which point, it's non-taxable for most situations, so doesn't need grossing up). It's not that I disbelieve the new hire, but rather that I have to make it accountable in order to make it non-taxable.

If I pay cash comp (whether as a signing bonus, periodic bonus, commission, in contemplation of on-going employment, or as part of a termination agreement), they're wages in my book and I've never seen them grossed up (unless more of the character of the gift card or Christmas ham variety).

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#330

Post by yongjik »

guy_c wrote: post #328
Chris2048 wrote: post #100

"We hire only the best" "What do you pay?" "Market Rate."

Nice! The same conversation in the context of sports, where they really do want the best: "We hire only the best" "What do you pay?" "Between 10 and 30 million USD per year"

So...... market rate?

(I know, I know, it was a terrible joke.)

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