Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#321

Post by wtbob » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:32 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #40

Here's what I don't get... If you have any options at all, why stay at a company with sub-par technology that abuses their workers? They've been stuck in low 3 Glassdoor [0] range for a while. It's layoff after layoff as they slowly dismantle the company. Why stay? Geographic limitations? Narrow skillsets? [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/IBM-Reviews-E354.htm#trend...

> If you have any options at all, why stay at a company with sub-par technology that abuses their workers?

I used to work there, and I can say that it's a lot like an abusive marriage: IBM is really, really good at convincing one that the IT job market is a tough place (!), that one got really lucky getting a job with IBM, and that one could never find another job anywhere else (!), and that $70,000 is a great salary for a world-class technical talent (!!!).

The sad thing is that there are so many smart, good people there, absolutely wasted in their positions. IBM could be an amazing, powerful company if it actually knew how to release the energy of its employees.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#322

Post by mathattack » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:35 PM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #248

mathattack wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good point - the human toll is tough. Did Dubuque get anything in writing about the jobs to be provided? $50M in tax breaks to support 1000 jobs is very expensive!

This might be a case of (X-50 Million) (X being the taxes on 1000 jobs) is bigger than 0 (amount of taxes collected on non-existent IBM office)

Let's do some math from a source [0]

Sounds like 1300 jobs paying 46K, double the local average, over the course of 6 years.

From a "paying taxes to buy higher salaries" point of view this is 1300 * (0.5 * 46K) * 6 ~= $180M. Sounds like a positive NPV transaction. But... How much of the increase does the city and state actually capture in Taxes? Let's call it 15% between city, state, local and sales. (This is very fuzzy math) Then you get 180M * 0.15 ~= 27M.

In the end it sounds like the city and state of Dubuque did a wealth transfer from taxpayers to a subset of local employees, many of whom are now jobless and will need to go back to $23K jobs or move.

These types of arrangements frequently end poorly. If the local market won't bear a certain wage rate, it's hard for one-off tax rebates to fix things. You need to go deeper - change the entire tax regime, improve the education system, etc.

Cringely [1] opines on this too.

[0] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-19/iowa-spent...

[1] http://www.cringely.com/2012/04/18/somethings-rotten-in-dubu...

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#323

Post by Kurtz79 » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:40 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #117

mathattack wrote: post #40

Here's what I don't get... If you have any options at all, why stay at a company with sub-par technology that abuses their workers? They've been stuck in low 3 Glassdoor [0] range for a while. It's layoff after layoff as they slowly dismantle the company. Why stay? Geographic limitations? Narrow skillsets? [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/IBM-Reviews-E354.htm#trend...

Among other factors mentioned: employer-specific skillsets. Technology jobs are very highly specialised. And I'm not just speaking of computer tech. I'm old enough to have seen several generations of obsoleted "gold tickets". Nuclear Engineering, future destroyed March 28, 1979. Freeway engineers, the freeway protests of the 1960s/1970s. Big Three auto manufacturers, dream destroyed with the first oil embargo, and su…

"Technology jobs are very highly specialised. And I'm not just speaking of computer tech."

I would argue that computer tech is kind of an exception.

I can see a Nuclear or Aerospace Engineer having trouble adapting his knowledge and skills to other professions, since that knowledge is deeply tied to the domain, but a Perl (or C++/Java or whatever) hacker should't really have too many problems in transitioning to another language.

That they would find difficulties in finding a new job because dumb HR recruiters see 10 years of Perl experience in the resume as opposed to the "10 years of Swift" (sic) they are looking for is another matter...

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#324

Post by chiph » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:42 PM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #268

komaromy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound like all that much for the CEO of an IBM-sized company.

I could run IBM, Yahoo and Nokia to the ground for penny on the dollar that the corresponding executives made/are making. You don't need to pay me Elop level money to destroy something like Nokia - I would happily do it for 100K per year. I may not do it as well, and could probably have the unfortunate success story here and there. But I am capable - just give me a chance.

Hey buddy - get in line. I can destroy shareholder value less rapidly than you or Ginni, and do it for less.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#325

Post by drethemadrapper » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:46 PM UTC

x5n1 wrote: post #229

MikeNomad wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to work with your analogy... Does that mean H1Bs are the sharks, or the chum?

H1Bs are our century's slaves, imported to work the tech plantations. Cheaper than locals. Fewer rights. Easier to exploit. And also make their owners a lot of money. In this case they are better off for it, that much has changed.

You rock! So is the issuing of PR permits for some countries.I have been there...

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#326

Post by wcummings » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:46 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #200

qaq wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perl hackers? Booking.com will actually pay you to learn perl :)

Frequently a negative sign. Up-and-coming tech frequently has a flood of talent. Dying: companies with vested systems (say, Cobol, or Solaris) are catching the tail-end of the curve. The truly good programmers have gotten out, or switched skills, or transferred to management. Hopping on a sinking ship usually doesn't last long. (Nothing against Perl. It's just a seriously fading language at this point.)

I bet there's a ton of legacy Perl out there. Someone has to maintain it.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#327

Post by ZanyProgrammer » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #81

ryandrake wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$6.2M sounds like a lot for any single human being.

$6.2M is not a lot for a big company if the leader can increase sales or profits by even a few percent... which does not appear to be the case here.

It's a lot when you're one of those laid off engineers with 30+ years of experience. It's an outrageous salary in general.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#328

Post by wtbob » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

patrickaljord wrote: post #179

dandelany wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singular "they" is gender-neutral and grammatically correct, I don't know why more people don't use it.

People probably don't use it because at every English school in non English-speaking countries, they teach you that "they" is for plural only. I had personally never heard until recently that "they" could be singular too. It also really sounds weird to a French like me.

> It also really sounds weird to a French like me.

It sounds weird, and incorrect, to a native English-speaker like me, particularly when 'they' and 'their' are used more than once or maybe twice in a sentence.

If you don't know whether someone is male or female, use male pronouns until told otherwise. That's the rule in English, and it works.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#329

Post by bcg1 » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

mtbcoder wrote: post #307

finstell wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic downturn happens every now and again. That's expected. You cannot change it. What a software engineer should have done was to be prepared for it. I don't see any valid reasons for him to end up in a supermarket job. 2000s crisis lasted a couple of years at the most. He should have had the means to survive comfortably the temporary time period when he was without an income. The lesson is: Be prepared as if yo…

That's assuming one has the ability to sock away enough savings to ease the burden of any long-term unemployment. The reality though is that millions of US citizens do not even have this option, even knowing full well that they need to be saving more. They simply cannot because the cost of living is too great and wages are too low. The fact that the US is "not a social country, you are on your own when shit happens",…

We're talking about tech jobs here, not minimum wage jobs that don't provide a living wage.

I think the point is really that most people conflate their NEEDS with their WANTS and end up living hand to mouth because of it. If you are a tech worker in the USA and you don't have extenuating circumstances that eat up large portions of your income (like child support, back taxes, massive student loan debt, etc) and cannot be avoided, then you should be able to limit your monthly expenses to be able to save money. The truth is though, that most people "need" the latest phone, the latest computer, a new car (because apparently no other cars are "reliable"), etc. In my experience just making small changes to your lifestyle can have a massive impact on your ability to save.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#330

Post by ones_and_zeros » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 1:54 PM UTC

kozikow wrote: post #298

piratebroadcast wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my #1 worry about our industry - Zuckerberg and his folks will get that FWD.us thing passed and use to to ship cheap Indian engineers over here. Call me an asshole if you want but don't be shocked when it happens to you.

I didn't get the H1B visa in the lottery, but I got moved to UK and got paid the same salary. Since you mentioned Facebook - they opened the office in London when H1B visa lotteries started, and now the office have several hundreds employees. If you won't accept foreign workers be prepared that more and more tech jobs will just move abroad.

Surely FB can find whatever skills they need domestically. I can't imagine there is a skillset that several hundred people have abroad but that does not exist in the US.

It comes down to pay not skills. FB could afford the people in the US with those skills, they are just looking for employees that are cheaper, and they tend to be Indians and Chinese because they value being on US soil more than anyone else. I heard a phrase recently "India has a population of 1 Billion and 900 Million want to be in the US".

The competition is fierce and I don't blame them.