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Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

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Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#321

Post by morgante »

stonogo wrote: post #138
tamana wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eich isn't missing the point; he is being practical and not catering to your freeloading and obscure politics.

Freeloading? You're missing the point; we're not catering to your sense of entitlement.

You are freeloading.

You're taking advantage of content that was paid for with the attention of people besides yourself. This is no different than grazing on a green you don't maintain.

If you're so opposed to ads, don't read content. Don't pretend that anybody is forcing you to visit ad supported content.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#322

Post by hackuser »

BrendanEich wrote: post #141
jordigh wrote: post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

I get your point, and it is a good one. We have a micro payments channel to publishers, frictionless and anonymous, under construction, for folks who want no ads and who will pay. Other users than you will be able to mix and match, too: better and more private ads on sites they don't support, with a revenue share to these users that they can spend on sites they do. We aren't saying "only ads". We do see ads as a nece…

> I would love to see micropayments replace ads.

I don't know much about the technical reality of it, but I've thought that an effective micropayments system could be revolutionary, one of thhe most important innovations in tech:

1) It could be a way of financing an incredible amount of essential work that current funding models fail, because the payments are one-off and not worth the high trasaction costs (in fees and user time). Think of art (how do you pay for an amazing digital image) to music (pay for one song) to journalism (how do you pay for one article) to games to FOSS code to expert Q&A to much more. Financing these endeavors could lead to much more and much better.

2) It can solve much of the privacy problem, assuming the micropayments are cash-like and not tracked. I hope anonymity, which you mention in your comment, and all aspects of confidentiality are being designed and built in as core functions.

3) It could enable automated rights clearinghouses in many fields. Do you want to use part of that code/song/etc. in your work? No need to contact the rights holder and negotiate a contract, an impossibly high transaction cost for most, just use the micropayment system. Much of art in the digital age is, or should be, collage. As they say, 'good artists borrow, great artists steal'.

In my mind, it could be the most important IT innovation for culture, code, and many other aspects of society.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#323

Post by tomcam »

BrendanEich wrote: post #234
metafunctor wrote: post #206

Is anyone else concerned about the possibility that if ad blocking on the web becomes widespread enough, we will end up with more ads baked into the content itself? Native advertising, ads burned into images, ads burned in the middle of videos? Thinking selfishly, I would much prefer the status quo, where I can block most ads, but the majority of consumers don't do it. Current ad blocking tech is fine, I'm afraid thi…

Native ads can be, and are today, blocked. Consider those ugly Taboola and Outbrain octoboxes with parasite pictures at the bottom of too many news stories these days. Those are just img in div HTML. But adblockers remove them with HTML rules (Brave will too). In general, you can Greasemonkey anything. Tracker-less first party native ads may be harder to match, but most sites would need tracking to aggregate audience…

Huge fan of Brendan, but this did not really address parent's point--which I think is valid, and unanswered. Most people don't use Greasemonkey-propelled solutions. I wonder if the answer is that highly targeted ads tend to work. When I'm on the guitar subreddit it'd be fine for me to see ads from Fender. And part of what I seek when I read a guitar magazine is ads, because they alert me to things that I sometimes don't find out about any other way.

I also like the idea of paying to block ads that aren't relevant to me. I believe in a free market and totally understand that things have to be paid for. Sometimes ads are the answer, but I find many of the interstitials to be irrelevant and sometimes they slow the site down unacceptably. Would be willing to pay for this experience not to happen.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#324

Post by tomcam »

BrendanEich wrote: post #234
metafunctor wrote: post #206

Is anyone else concerned about the possibility that if ad blocking on the web becomes widespread enough, we will end up with more ads baked into the content itself? Native advertising, ads burned into images, ads burned in the middle of videos? Thinking selfishly, I would much prefer the status quo, where I can block most ads, but the majority of consumers don't do it. Current ad blocking tech is fine, I'm afraid thi…

Native ads can be, and are today, blocked. Consider those ugly Taboola and Outbrain octoboxes with parasite pictures at the bottom of too many news stories these days. Those are just img in div HTML. But adblockers remove them with HTML rules (Brave will too). In general, you can Greasemonkey anything. Tracker-less first party native ads may be harder to match, but most sites would need tracking to aggregate audience…

Huge fan of Brendan, but this did not really address parent's point--which I think is valid, and unanswered. Most people don't use Greasemonkey-propelled solutions. I wonder if the answer is that highly targeted ads tend to work. When I'm on the guitar subreddit it'd be fine for me to see ads from Fender. And part of what I seek when I read a guitar magazine is ads, because they alert me to things that I sometimes don't find out about any other way.

I also like the idea of paying to block ads that aren't relevant to me. I believe in a free market and totally understand that things have to be paid for. Sometimes ads are the answer, but I find many of the interstitials to be irrelevant and sometimes they slow the site down unacceptably. Would be willing to pay for this experience not to happen.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#325

Post by eli »

jordigh wrote: post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

This startup might not be for you. That's ok and doesn't mean the author is doing something wrong.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#327

Post by hackuser »

lsc wrote: post #51
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #27

Its by the same guy who donated to causes doing their best to make sure two people in love can't get married due to their gender. Sociopathy has many forms and its obvious to me that Eich is just an untrustworthy guy with a lot of bad ideas. Low-rent projects like these is just further evidence that you need a founder/leader you can trust. Its clear he's exhausted his social capital and at age 54 is far away from his…

Diversity, I think, is really important. Diversity of thought as well as all the other kinds of diversity. It's important to be able to work with people who come from different backgrounds, who have different beliefs. I see this on both sides (I see it more often on the left, but that's just because my filter bubble is a somewhat leftish one.. when I step out of that bubble, I see plenty examples of people on the rig…

It's not true that all diversity of thought is good or acceptable. As obvious examples, the idea that people with black skin should be slaves, or that people who believe in Judaism should be rounded up and exterminated.

Saying that gay people should be denied the right to marry is not much different in my mind than advocating segregation for blacks, or denying Muslims various rights. (However, as long as Eich is no longer promoting that view, I think it's long past time for everyone else to move on. I hope my personal mistakes aren't remembered and rehashed industry-wide like that!)

So where to draw the line? A simple mnemonic I use: The only thing I don't tolerate is intolerance. It's a little trite, but it works and there is another good reason for it: The intolerent are parasites on the social contract of tolerance; they violate it and then claim they should have its protection.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#329

Post by scrollaway »

tomcam wrote: post #323
BrendanEich wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native ads can be, and are today, blocked. Consider those ugly Taboola and Outbrain octoboxes with parasite pictures at the bottom of too many news stories these days. Those are just img in div HTML. But adblockers remove them with HTML rules (Brave will too). In general, you can Greasemonkey anything. Tracker-less first party native ads may be harder to match, but most sites would need tracking to aggregate audience…

Huge fan of Brendan, but this did not really address parent's point--which I think is valid, and unanswered. Most people don't use Greasemonkey-propelled solutions. I wonder if the answer is that highly targeted ads tend to work. When I'm on the guitar subreddit it'd be fine for me to see ads from Fender. And part of what I seek when I read a guitar magazine is ads, because they alert me to things that I sometimes do…

We can't really have both ad relevance (outside the local context) and privacy. One requires the advertiser know things about me I personally have no desire for them to know.

> Would be willing to pay for this experience not to happen.

I don't know if I'm in the minority, but I'm honestly not willing to pay for that. Fact is, I use adblock right now, but if I couldn't use adblock on some sites I'd simply stop visiting them.

I despise the ad-filled experience. I'm with the current top post and despise the idea of being constantly manipulated into buying things I do not need. If there were less ad overall on the internet, I wouldn't care about blocking them, but that's tragedy of the commons for you.

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