The Unemployable Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#311

Post by FLUX-YOU » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 4:45 PM UTC

voidfunc wrote: post #137

omouse wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing move... unless you turn it into one, by letting your skills stagnate and wither, which is on you. Working 40 hrs without training or proper mentoring leads to skill stagnation. A $500 training budget will get you nowhere and you'll find yourself using long weekends (like I'm doing right now) learning new skills. Mayb…

Can anyone please tell me what developers use training budgets for? I feel like most things I have learned are from free resources such as blogs and StackOverflow. What do people spend money on? Books I suppose are the most likely candidate, but those can definitely be bought with $500... Do people actually get value out of conferences? Those always seem more like cash grabs and marketing events than actual training…

We've paid for numerous video tutorials and live talks about specific technologies.

I suspect there's plenty of value in the well-known conferences.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#312

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 4:47 PM UTC

icefox wrote: post #289

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #108

I see this as a result of two problems: 1: We expect everything to be perfectly packaged and ready to go, including people. We aren't interested in investing in people. A cog is a cog. 2: Older programmers are more expensive (see: skilled), and are more likely to have families or obligations that prevent their hustle (see: working bullshit hours for free).

Depends on the company. My current company does invest in developers. Especially at the junior level where there is a lot to teach, but at all the levels effort and investment is made in individuals. From books, classes, pair programming, etc. Taking the long outlook and investing in individuals knowing that the payoff is going to be in a few years works from what I have seen.

I agree, I just think it will take time for it to catch on among the private sphere. I work now in higher Ed and the culture is much different: surprise, surprise, an Ivy League university likes its employees learning. I also work with a lot of non-career programmers, none of which have Ivy degrees (nor do I). Ofc most companies can't hold a candle to these educational resources, but if they choose to invest in their staff, like you say, it does work.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#313

Post by FLUX-YOU » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 4:50 PM UTC

nordic_nomad wrote: post #194

vonmoltke wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated c…

So I'm self taught, no degree, and I get job offers and headhunters out of the blue from all over the central US. Denver, Kansas City, Omaha, Des Moines, Chicago, and small cities I've never heard of. The best thing I ever did was look at my friends early on who were getting found on linked in and organized my linkedin profile to look as similar as theirs as I could truthfully. The next best thing was taking 6 months…

>Did one of those code bootcamps to learn back end C# .Net MVC work in 6 months and got my first developer job at $40k, got the next one at $60k 6 months later, $75k 6 months after that, and $100k 6 months after that.

That's a ridiculously good trajectory actually. Did you go to each next job based on what you built previously (plus the business experience), or were you also doing your own stuff in parallel to work?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#314

Post by nordic_nomad » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 4:51 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #223

mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

If there is really an under-supply of (or over-demand for) developers, why aren't developer salaries skyrocketing? Something doesn't add up.

Some really are. I know several who I wouldn't classify as all that skilled, but they hit the right check boxes, and they're making $160k-$350k a year a year or two out of college or even high school.

The way this works is that each check box you can hit, no matter how arbitrarily increases your market value x amount.

- Have a UX portfolio? $40k - Is it good and you know javascript? +$20k - Have a couple of javascript frameworks under your belt? +$50k - Show that you're language agnostic on the backend? +20k - Have you made any videogames? +$30k - Did a machine learning project once and know how to talk about the subject intelligently? +$50k.

etc. The thing is that not every job will pay for every checkbox, but if you find one that does you maximize your value. It's one of those matrix things.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#315

Post by NumberSix » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 4:57 PM UTC

The "technology" industry is extremely and irrationally picky in selecting and retaining technical employees, primarily programmers or software engineers.

Not everyone does it. Not every company that does it does it consistently. It is largely subconscious. Technical or "cultural fit" excuses are typically cited to explain and justify the rejection of the taboo candidate.

There are a number of non-technical criterion that frequently push genuinely qualified, competent, indeed exceptional candidates into the "not qualified" category. These include:

o Over thirty-five

o Looks over thirty-five (worse)

o White or gray hair (even worse)

o Has a Ph.D.

o A new or recent (within 2 years) Ph.D. (worse)

o Lack of a college degree

o Identifiable membership in certain low status minority groups, notably African-American or someone with a Spanish surname and visible American Indian ancestry

o Female

o Over ten years of purely technical experience regardless of age.

o Less than three years of paid professional experience (working for a University or government research lab often does not count)

o Expresses skepticism of a currently popular fad in programming

o Obviously knows more or is smarter or both than the people conducting the technical interview.

o Just plain different from the dominant group at the potential employer is some visible way.

o A long recent period of unemployment (over six months, probably over three months)

By his own account, the OP lacks a formal college degree and is well over 35.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#316

Post by michaelcampbell » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 4:58 PM UTC

strathmeyer wrote: post #142

mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

What's baffling is people in denial blaming the victims. We admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. We weren't fooled, we were just dumb. But we still want to survive, that doesn't make us bad people just because we enjoy programming.

> thinking a Computer Science degree had any value.

Interesting. I thought that in 1984, and I've been right ever since then. As have most of the classmates I have kept up with (perhaps a self-selection bias there, granted).

Maybe it was the time or I've been very lucky.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#317

Post by pd1 » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 4:59 PM UTC

duggan wrote: post #44

> Being able to get work in this field without a fancy background is still possible, but only if you have the right connections. Like I said: it's no longer sufficient to be able to do the job This sentiment regularly comes up on HN, and I find it a little exasperating. Human interaction has always been an important part of career. There's a subtle (or not so subtle) contempt for soft skills in these laments. You can…

> You work in the sales department of your own career.

That's a pretty good way of putting it.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#318

Post by pd1 » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

NumberSix wrote: post #315

The "technology" industry is extremely and irrationally picky in selecting and retaining technical employees, primarily programmers or software engineers. Not everyone does it. Not every company that does it does it consistently. It is largely subconscious. Technical or "cultural fit" excuses are typically cited to explain and justify the rejection of the taboo candidate. There are a number of non-technical criterion…

Even if we go by the assumption that this is true, it's then not going to be exclusive to the technology industry.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#319

Post by lsc » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

no... this happens. I've got a buddy who is trying to find a job right now. My phone is ringing off the hook even after I've removed my number from the job boards, 'cause I have a pretty cushy gig right now, while he gets almost nothing. He's one of the smartest guys I know, and he's not crazy, no record or nothing, he's just kinda shy and comes off as... well, people tend to think he's shorter than he is.

Which is fuckin' weird, 'cause who cares, right? this isn't sales. the man can program.

Now, he does have a handful of real problems. First, he takes interviews seriously; like he stops looking for work when he gets a serious one. He doesn't look for work while he's working. And he wants a job where he has experience with the languages and frameworks, rather than practicing his "I've got hands, I'm sure I can figure it out" that the rest of us do. To be clear, he's worked with me before, and I have seen him pick up new stuff. He's a smart guy and picks up new stuff faster than most, he just doesn't want to be deceptive.

(If anyone is looking for a smart C++ dude, preferably someone using QT, lemme know, I'll hook you up.)

The funny thing is that I just got off of working for my own company for a long time (not ten years... about half that) and yeah, it's harder to get back in the game working for other people; I'm making less than several of my ex-employees, and I had to do way more interviews than I usually do (though, as I said in another post, that might be because I was confused about what 'devops' meant, in a job description)

So... working for yourself at a company that wasn't venture backed is a disadvantage, but not one that can't be overcome. Lacking that "bro attitude" - that confidence - that willingness to push and shove and to say what is expected? that's a disadvantage... well, that's a disadvantage that it's really hard to overcome.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#320

Post by vonmoltke » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

HillRat wrote: post #252

vonmoltke wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I live in Dallas. I have been fishing in Dallas and Austin over the past several months and can't get any interviews. I would like to know where all these "desperate" companies are and what domains they are in.

What's your skill set and background? I hired a dev team a few months ago in Dallas and it was incredibly difficult to find qualified candidates, of whom only a few made it through the tech interviews (and I'm not that tough an interviewer) -- twenty resumes (from a very good headhunter who culled out marginal candidates) meant a dozen interviews meant one hire. I'm not in the hiring market right now (and may not eve…

Thanks, I'll do that. For the record, my professional programming experience is about 2/3 real-time embedded signal processing code, 1/3 NLP research and prototyping. I have also had a straight EE role that involved some embedded and test set code.