The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills • Hacker News Board

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#311

Post by smorrow » Thu, May 14, 2015, 12:07 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #309

smorrow wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

heh. Is there any part of that that's concretely not true? Humans all over the world have come up with it independently -- I dunno, unless Muslims and Mormons shared notes. I could even go further and claim it to be an almost pan-mammalian truth. Men and women are different. Especially when it comes to sex.

No, they're not that different, no you don't need more sex than one woman can give you to remain mentally healthy, as evidenced by all the not-crazy monogamists. You're an idiot. If you want more than one partner, go for it, become a polyamorist. Lots of men and women do. But your generalisations and your attitude towards women are childish, you need to grow up.

I may have been exaggerating when I said mental health+, but it's still a fact that men still aren't getting laid as much as they would ideally like to=.

I mean, how would you even know? Because they aren't begging for it constantly? Really, I can tell you that that's more due to being polite and knowing in advance that the answer will be no.

+ I term I use in a much broader sense internally, since I don't know any better for word it. So I might let it out without checking if other people will understand what I'm saying.

= Not that they're entitled to it or anything, but then that never was my point.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#312

Post by javert » Thu, May 14, 2015, 12:49 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #307

javert wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cake doesn't choose to call itself cake. Feminists choose to call themselves feminists, and thereby associate themselves with bad feminists. But let's not quibble here--- most feminists are collectivists advocating for what they perceive as their in-group at the expense of others. There are very few self-professed feminists who would be good, were it merely not for the label. Also, the reason you can't understand is…

No, it was not an honest attempt to understand your point, it was an attempt to ridicule your facile, ridiculous non-point. I'd love to see your study on what most feminists advocate, it would make fascinating reading, what was your methodology?

> No, it was not an honest attempt to understand your point, it was an attempt to ridicule your facile, ridiculous non-point.

This shows that you put people's whims over the truth. You'd rather influence by intimidation than by referencing reality and using reason. I don't think this kind of behavior should be tolerated by this community.

> I'd love to see your study on what most feminists advocate, it would make fascinating reading, what was your methodology?

This is the other side of the same coin. You hold that nothing is true without some sort of research study, knowing full well that such studies are too concretely empirical to be used to draw reliable conclusions (which is why they often appear to disagree with one another). That leaves nothing but whims and intimidation.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#313

Post by olivier1664 » Thu, May 14, 2015, 1:35 AM UTC

fierycatnet wrote: post #58

voltagex_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you, what's your budget and what do you enjoy?

I am in TX with a budget of ~1500 for a week or two. The longer and cheaper alone time is better. What do I like, you know I've been so slammed and in my head that I can't even pick a vacation spot or remember what I like. I think I'd enjoy just some peace somewhere, disconnected from it all for a week or two.

What about going work in a farm (something like fruit picking) to be sure to be busy with something different, and to feel physically (instead of mentally) exhausted at the end of your day.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#314

Post by facepalm » Thu, May 14, 2015, 8:53 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #135

facepalm wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that women don't need to prove their worth to society. They can bear children. What can men do? If they can't find a way to make themselves useful, what is their place?

>> The difference is that women don't need to prove their worth to society. They can bear children. Yes, I frequently read articles in the press about women on welfare with large families, and how amazing they are for having children, and how privileged we all are to contribute to their upkeep! I am not defined by my use to society. I live my life for me and the people I love, my place is what I make it, not what 'so…

The frequency of stories is irrelevant to the frequencies in real live. It's just your perception. And where are the stories about men on welfare?

And I am pretty sure that you depend on society (the people around you) a lot. You sound as if you look down on welfare moms. How would your friends like you as a welfare mom - would they still be your friends? How would you feel?

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#315

Post by facepalm » Thu, May 14, 2015, 8:55 AM UTC

_pmf_ wrote: post #111

facepalm wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany there was a funny incident recently: the Green political party decided to change all the wording in their publications to be gender neutral. In German often jobs have two names, somewhat like "captain" and "captainness" for male and female captains. And so on. They decided to change everything to "captain/ness". The funny thing was that they properly gendered all positive personae appearing in their public…

> But they forgot about the negative appearances. "Forgot".

What do you mean? Is it incorrect? I am not a native speaker of English.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#316

Post by facepalm » Thu, May 14, 2015, 8:59 AM UTC

bakhy wrote: post #109

facepalm wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You may be right, you may be wrong, but it is in any case too early, maybe even defeatist to talk about that now" After hundreds of thousands of years of existance of humans you think it is too early to talk about that? I consider that ridiculous. You can not simply escape reality by crying "reductionism". Of course it is a statement of averages. Not every woman is fine, things can get in the way. But on average, wo…

What are you talking about? :D I meant, given that we are right now facing this problem of high suicide rates among men, it is definitely too early and too defeatist to ascribe it to biological differences. (If that is what you were trying to say. As I already said, I'm not sure if I understood correctly what you were trying to say.) We have to look at our culture and at ways in which we can change this. Maybe in the…

I wasn't talking about male suicide specifically. But if you want, I think there should be a lot of data about that already, too.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#317

Post by airtonix » Thu, May 14, 2015, 11:50 AM UTC

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #275

curun1r wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing. But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow u…

There is two sides to this equation. Men need to be taught to express their emotions, but society needs to be taught to be just as accepting of a man who expresses his emotions as one who is stoic, if not more accepting. As it stands, you can teach men to express their emotions all you want, but as long as the stoic man is valued more, we are going to have problems.

No, just no. You're asking people to act weak and unstable. You're promoting a path that leads to unconscious confidence in decisions you make.

Every decision is wrong, but it's your job as the one who has their shit together in the shit-storm to choose the least fucked up choice.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#318

Post by normloman » Thu, May 14, 2015, 1:23 PM UTC

mreiland wrote: post #306

normloman wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never said it was men's fault. I said the problem is society's skewed definition of masculinity. It's perpetuated by both men and women. The solution is implied: redefine what it means to be a man.

We've been redefining what it means to be a man and the suicide rates went up.

Gasp! A correlation!

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#319

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, May 14, 2015, 1:32 PM UTC

smorrow wrote: post #310

ceejayoz wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having sex with someone without their consent is rape, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. Yes, it does. > If a woman "raped" me, didn't get pregnant by it, didn't give me any skanky diseases, and didn't publicly accuse me of being the rapist, then I'd probably enjoy it. Jesus Christ.

Having the same name as an often-violent crime doesn't automatically mean something is that bad. Squashing an insect and setting a mouse trap are technically killing, but there's nothing wrong with them. I think you first need to admit that it's at least conceivably possible that your emotion overreaction is compromising your objectivity on this subject. Unless she's bending it, squeezing them, or using a strap-on, t…

Again, Jesus Christ!

You dismiss the psychological and emotional trauma of being subjected to non-consensual sex as "a complete non-issue in terms of actual consequences".

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#320

Post by Nursie » Thu, May 14, 2015, 3:42 PM UTC

smorrow wrote: post #311

Nursie wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they're not that different, no you don't need more sex than one woman can give you to remain mentally healthy, as evidenced by all the not-crazy monogamists. You're an idiot. If you want more than one partner, go for it, become a polyamorist. Lots of men and women do. But your generalisations and your attitude towards women are childish, you need to grow up.

I may have been exaggerating when I said mental health+, but it's still a fact that men still aren't getting laid as much as they would ideally like to=. I mean, how would you even know? Because they aren't begging for it constantly? Really, I can tell you that that's more due to being polite and knowing in advance that the answer will be no. + I term I use in a much broader sense internally, since I don't know any b…

If you don't think that the woman you are with has a high enough sex drive for you then you should probably discuss it with her or find someone more compatible with your needs.

If you can't be satisfied with sex with only one woman the you are free to lead a polyamorist lifestyle if you wish.

It's the generalisations across entire genders and the implied sexism that come across as childish. Not to mention your bizarre and horrific attitudes to rape. Do what you like, but women are people with varying tastes and drives just as much as men are. Maybe if you got to know a few you might find this out.