Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life • Hacker News Board

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#311

Post by byuu » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:09 PM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #168

byuu wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilit…

> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impos…

I just want to say that, although I don't fully agree with you, I really appreciate you chiming in with your thoughts on this. It's given me plenty to think about.

In the event that you are right, and she's really being sincere, then I hope she gets help to work through her issues. Especially over the parts about her childhood at the end.

> I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system which puts her at a significant disadvantage

Yes, but the "system" isn't in any way Hank's doing, nor Hank's fault, and is no justification for a dismissal of empathy.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#312

Post by rblstr » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:10 PM UTC

bluehex wrote: post #184

tomp wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Not too bad, he's a white male. I'm a black Jewish female." This makes her racist and sexist at the same time.

Technically she is not, according to [1] /s [1] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/6039856858

Oh. So she's actually racist. Great.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#313

Post by chongli » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:10 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #280

interpol_p wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See I don't get hatred at Hank, I mean, I did initially read it like that. But when I took a step back I started to see it as hatred of being excluded in a field you love. Hatred at the obliviousness of Hank — his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority. I think her view of Hank is to disregard him — kind of "Oh he'll be okay, the system's on his side…

> his inability to realise how vulnerable she felt simply attending a conference because she was in the minority Aren't we granting too much power to minorities? Let me tell you a story that happened to me. I once went to a Java developers meetup. I'm a Lisper, probably the only one that was attending, so I was a clear minority (that was 3 years ago, back before everyone jumped onto functional programming bandwagon a…

Aren't we granting too much power to minorities?

Why should we be the ones who have the ability to grant power?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#314

Post by copsarebastards » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:11 PM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #92

near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

> But I've been trying very hard to imagine what it's like to go to PyCon as a minority, and to have someone sitting in earshot comfortably make jokes that make me feel threatened all while watching a talk on inclusiveness.

There are tons of cases where people have been made to feel uncomfortable by their peers in the software industry because of their race and/or sex. Racism and sexism are definitely problems in the software industry.

But this specific case is just ridiculous. Look at the actual jokes involved. "That hardware has a really big dongle"? "I would fork that guy's repo"? The butts of these jokes were a fictional piece of hardware and a (probably white) male, respectively. There's nothing in those jokes that could logically lead a woman to believe that the jokers would cause her harm. Just because a joke is sexual doesn't mean it's sexist. This wasn't even an overreaction: it was a reaction to something that wasn't sexist.

Internet feminism is a particularly poor representation of modern feminist thought. Most modern feminists say that women are just as sexual as men, and that women don't express their sexuality because of social pressure--an assertion which is gaining some scientific evidence. Ironically, Adria is enforcing a stereotype that anything sexual is anti-female. From that perspective, Adria's actions are the sexist ones, not Hank's.

I agree that both Adria and Hank got worse than they deserved in this situation. Certainly losing their jobs is too much, and nobody should ever have to experience death threats. But I find it a lot harder to be sympathetic to Adria in this case. If I were her employer I'd definitely be having doubts. If my engineers are making sexist comments I will fire them, but someone who accuses people of making sexist comments when they aren't making sexist comments is a liability.

Of course, there may be more to this story we don't know. Maybe Hank made some other jokes that were actually sexist.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#315

Post by Lawtonfogle » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:11 PM UTC

imjoshholloway wrote: post #50

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #8

> “Somebody getting fired is pretty bad,” I said. “I know you didn’t call for him to be fired. But you must have felt pretty bad.” > “Not too bad,” she said. She thought more and shook her head decisively. “He’s a white male. I’m a black Jewish female. He was saying things that could be inferred as offensive to me, sitting in front of him. I do have empathy for him but it only goes so far. If he had Down’s Syndrome a…

What makes me laugh is where she says she's not to blame for what happened to Hank yet she then blames HIM for what happened to her. If she didn't send the tweet, he wouldn't have got fired. If he didn't get fired, he wouldn't have posted on HN about being fired. If he didn't post on HN then none of this would've happened. Basically it all stems from her original tweet.. I'm not condoning any of the behaviour but it…

What wasn't cool? Making a joke about a human body part to a friend that was accidentally overheard? Didn't she make a similar joke on a far more public forum than Hank did?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#316

Post by mreiland » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:11 PM UTC

TuringTest wrote: post #268

BSousa wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, Hank got more than he deserved (edit: being fired not the harassement), but not Adria. She posted the tweet WITH the photo. She started this. She (if I remember correctly) was some PR/evangelist in the company. What she did was exactly the opposite. I could understand if she tweeted about 'two men' making those jokes/whatnot and complain about it, BUT without a picture. With it, I honestly believe she got…

> I'm sorry, Hank got more than he deserved, but not Adria. From the article: > Someone sent Adria a photograph of a beheaded woman with tape over her mouth. Adria’s face was superimposed onto the bodies of porn actors. Websites were created to teach people how to make the superimposing look seamless — by matching skin-tones. On Facebook someone wrote, “I hope I can find Adria, kidnap her, put a torture bag over her…

deserved is maybe not the right word for it, but I certainly feel no empathy for her. She made her decision, she went on her crusade and she got the obvious result. Not the result she wanted, but the obvious result regardless.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#317

Post by pcthrowaway » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:12 PM UTC

fr0ggerrr wrote: post #12

This gives feminism a bad image.

I think it's important to repeat that Adria herself does not identify as feminist.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#318

Post by adl » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:13 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #281

adl wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. The same Adria who herself made penis jokes on twitter a few days earlier and who was playing Cards Against Humanity at the same PyCon conference? What happened to her is shameful and can't be condoned in any way, shape or form, but she engaged in the same (o…

Twitter isn't a professional setting like a conference session, and anyone joining in a game of CAH is deliberately opting-in to a situation where offensively funny combinations are the entire point of the game.

Twitter is way worse, it is a public forum, with thousands of followers and she used her account as an official representative of her company. (in a PR kind of capacity even.)

The dongle comment was a conversation between two people, it was not private, but it's audience was intended to be limited to two individuals.

The CAH game could offend someone that passed by (it was played in a hallway), what would have happened if someone took a picture of her playing CAH and tweeted "Not Cool Guys/Gals"and made a blog post about feeling treated at PyCon?

https://instagram.com/p/W_A1xlAacg/

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#319

Post by juliangregorian » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:14 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #113

throwawayaway wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so we agree, it's cheaper in europe to get justice, but not free.

I'm not sure about other EU countries, but mine grants a small amount of free lawyer hours to every resident. Those free lawyers are not AAA-grade for sure, but they take care of the formalities. Some people (low income, unions etc) are eligible for more hours and/or better free lawyers. So in case of a simple case, it might end up being free.

Why do people consistently say "my country" when it's just as easy to say "Denmark" or "Croatia" or what have you.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#320

Post by jrochkind1 » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 3:14 PM UTC

pcthrowaway wrote: post #249

hitekker wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But I can totally see how she could have been driven to do it, and I can even see how she would feel now — after all she's gone through — that she should not have to apologise for it." You can understand, yes, but that hatred-- and allow me to say that again-- hatred is not something that we can excuse on the basis of race alone. Adria really hates Hank; hated him so much that when she called down the twitter brigad…

Adria's immediate comment on the situation [1], conveniently not mentioned in the article being currently discussed, expressed anything but hatred for Hank. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047

Yeah, it's odd her opinion in the interview didn't seem to match that public HN comment, which I remembered too (thanks for finding it).

I'd guess the article author didn't notice/find the HN comment, or he would have asked her about it, I'm curious what she would say (she never meant it, she was just trying to save her own job? She changed her mind? She has complicated feelings?)