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Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

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Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#311

Post by wolfpackk »

robomartin wrote: post #305
wolfpackk wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hop on the government paved roads to drive to a lake that you couldn't get arrested for trespassing on because the government has preserved it this long, then hop on the darpa/dod funded internet to complain that you can't go fucking swimming is the epitome of irony. Go fuck yourself.

It is better to remain silent and be thought... May I suggest that getting an education might do wonders for your life? Just a thought.

resorting to ad hominems rather than reason, pretty typical for the moronic libertarian technophiles that seem to be all over hn.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#314

Post by robomartin »

bhauer wrote: post #302
robomartin wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. I voted for Obama the first time. Then, when I learned he had no clue, lied about everything, did not do as promised, plunged us into more debt, is a total union whore, etc, I voted for Romney. I am a true independent in the full sense of the word. To be fair, our system is based on political parties. If these were abolished and politicians had to run without party affiliation then one could vote outside clans…

Interesting voting pattern. To my mind, that pattern is another argument in favor of score voting (sometimes called "range voting") [1]. I'd vastly prefer score voting to our present plurality voting for all elections, and of course most importantly, national elections. This would have allowed me and you to score Obama, Romney, and Gary Johnson according to how well they match our ideals. I grow increasingly weary of…

I agree with you. The problem is that at one point you have to face the reality that the candidate you really care for can't win. How do you choose then? Do you not vote or try to mitigate damage by, yes, choosing the lesser evil?

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#315

Post by dragonwriter »

kunai wrote: post #306
robomartin wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. I voted for Obama the first time. Then, when I learned he had no clue, lied about everything, did not do as promised, plunged us into more debt, is a total union whore, etc, I voted for Romney. I am a true independent in the full sense of the word. To be fair, our system is based on political parties. If these were abolished and politicians had to run without party affiliation then one could vote outside clans…

> I voted for Romney You are part of the problem. When someone is a fucking idiot, you don't vote for the slightly less idiotic idiot, you vote third-party. You are not independent, and it's an embarrassment to say you are if you only vote for the lesser of two evils, and not one that cares about our country, like Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or Jill Stein.

> it's an embarrassment to say you are if you only vote for the lesser of two evils, and not one that cares about our country, like Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or Jill Stein.

Its quite possible to think that, of Obama and Romney, Romney is the lesser of two evils, and to think that for any X in (Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, Jill Stein), Romney would still be the lesser of two evils when considering Romney vs. X.

Its also quite possible to believe that Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or Jill Stein would be better than Romney who is in turn better than Obama but that, based on the information available at the time you go into the voting booth, that the plausible effects of voting for any of the third party candidates instead of Romney are, in declining order or probability:

1. No effect on the election outcome, 2. Increasing the probability of an Obama win 3. There is no #3

Based on this, it would be counterproductive to vote third party, and the responsible thing would be to vote for Romney.

(Note that none of this should be taken as indicating anything of my actual preferences among any of those candidates.)

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#316

Post by robomartin »

wolfpackk wrote: post #311
robomartin wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is better to remain silent and be thought... May I suggest that getting an education might do wonders for your life? Just a thought.

resorting to ad hominems rather than reason, pretty typical for the moronic libertarian technophiles that seem to be all over hn.

Really? And "go fuck yourself" is "reason" how?

I am merely a mirror for the direction you chose to take. If you want to discuss the topic with civility I am all for it so long as you don't ask me to do things with my body I am quite literally biologically incapable of doing.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#317

Post by tbatchelli »

robomartin wrote: post #72

I hate to use this tone but, so be it. Maybe now you morons who continue to vote in the pieces of shit into our government who are bent on taking more and more power for themselves will wake up and figure it out? How much more proof do you need? Does this make you angry yet or is Obama still your diety? Oh, and Republicans don't get a pass either. The point is that all of you morons voting like robots along party lin…

You say that a conservative libertarian approach is the only path. I find it hard to believe it is the only option, tbh, and you provide no evidence --nor I have evidence to support that it is not. But, could it be that the problem is that the US citizens have no (effectively possible) way to effect power on the government? Could it be that with a two party system there is little incentive to cater to the constituents? Could it be that there is little incentive for Democrats to be anything other than a little to the left of the Republicans, and that there is little incentive for Republicans to be other than not Democrats? ... There are examples of countries out there with more government (lefties!!!) and a better life for their constituents.

In any case, any form of goverment, big or small, if unchecked, will use it's power for self-serving interest. Governments are formed by human beings after all...

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#318

Post by powertower »

robomartin wrote: post #72

I hate to use this tone but, so be it. Maybe now you morons who continue to vote in the pieces of shit into our government who are bent on taking more and more power for themselves will wake up and figure it out? How much more proof do you need? Does this make you angry yet or is Obama still your diety? Oh, and Republicans don't get a pass either. The point is that all of you morons voting like robots along party lin…

> Maybe now you morons who continue to vote in the pieces of shit into our government who are bent on taking more and more power for themselves will wake up and figure it out?

In my opinion, from everything I've seen, the only thing they are bent on is protecting people like you from the increased threats of crimes, radicalization, and terrorism.

I know how that sounds, you can't figure out if I'm joking or if I'm a brain-washed moron.

But think of it this way, Obama did a 180 when he got into office because a) power-lust made him do it, or b) he gained access to a much more detailed and clearer picture than you have?

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#319

Post by robomartin »

d23 wrote: post #285
robomartin wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. I voted for Obama the first time. Then, when I learned he had no clue, lied about everything, did not do as promised, plunged us into more debt, is a total union whore, etc, I voted for Romney. I am a true independent in the full sense of the word. To be fair, our system is based on political parties. If these were abolished and politicians had to run without party affiliation then one could vote outside clans…

> Wrong. I voted for Obama the first time. Then, when I learned he had no clue, lied about everything, did not do as promised, plunged us into more debt, is a total union whore, etc, I voted for Romney. > I want an intellectually honest limited government that is fiscally conservative and socially, well, gets the fuck out of our lives. So you voted for a guy who ran on a platform that was the opposite? That governmen…

Voting within a system where you know, almost without a doubt, that only a Democrat or a Republican can win is really difficult. As an independent or libertarian you sometimes have to be pragmatic and vote for someone who might be aligned with some of what you think is important and hope to do some good. The alternative is to either waste your vote on someone who will not get elected or refrain from voting at all.

This isn't a simple problem. There are very few choices that actually make a difference.

I used my presidential voting record merely to point out that I truly don't follow party lines. Voting at all levels is important, not just for president.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#320

Post by kunai »

dragonwriter wrote: post #315
kunai wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I voted for Romney You are part of the problem. When someone is a fucking idiot, you don't vote for the slightly less idiotic idiot, you vote third-party. You are not independent, and it's an embarrassment to say you are if you only vote for the lesser of two evils, and not one that cares about our country, like Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or Jill Stein.

> it's an embarrassment to say you are if you only vote for the lesser of two evils, and not one that cares about our country, like Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or Jill Stein. Its quite possible to think that, of Obama and Romney, Romney is the lesser of two evils, and to think that for any X in (Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, Jill Stein), Romney would still be the lesser of two evils when considering Romney vs. X. Its also quit…

> Based on this, it would be counterproductive to vote third party, and the responsible thing would be to vote for Romney.

This only stands if you want it to be counterproductive. A third-party candidate vote is never counterproductive. Even if it did increase the probability of an Obama win, or even if it did have no effect on the election outcome, why would it be a wasted vote? What you're effectively doing is raising publicity for the cause. Just because you'll have to suffer 4 more years of struggle doesn't mean it's all for nought.

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