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After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

avi.press

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Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#311

Post by pdimitar »

cwillu wrote: post #310
pdimitar wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super curious then, and I stand corrected. You can put the `cargo clean gc` command on a daily/weekly schedule then, or configure the `gc` option in your Cargo config. Or set `CARGO_UNSTABLE_GC=true` in your shell init. Or all of the above.

PLEASE_UNBREAK_ME options should default to on; people who actually work on rust code are quite capable of turning it off when they configure the rest of their environment.

I don't disagree. I can only assume it's defaulted to off due to many people working on big codebases and there constantly evicting cache would objectively slow them down. But, far from ideal for everyone else.

Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#312

Post by em-bee »

landdate wrote: post #300
psd1 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://xkcd.com/224/ lol Zuckerberg became rich on php, which grinds my gears almost as much as the genocide thing. In fairness, my peers at $corp used to ship while I was sad-Wojciech "no you can't create tech debt". The universe is cruel to people who care.

php is a great language. there is a reason why the majority of the web runs on it.

the reason is that php was accessible. it provided the bridge between pre coded serverside includes and writing your whole website in code, which you would have had to do with any other language. nowadays many things that php made easy can also be done with client side javascript.

i remember a conversation with a php core developer who conceded that one of the problems in the php community is a large number of inexperienced developers. it is similar problem that javascript faces today, but that, thanks to AI is going to affect more and more languages.

php itself is not a bad language, i use it too if it is appropriate, but it also has improved over the decades. so nowadays i am more likely to use php than i would have been a few decades ago.

Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#313

Post by em-bee »

psd1 wrote: post #305
landdate wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

php is a great language. there is a reason why the majority of the web runs on it.

There's a reason why littering is the most common crime - it doesn't require intelligence or planning, and whatever you are holding can instantly become trash.

that's a bit harsh.

Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#314

Post by psd1 »

em-bee wrote: post #313
psd1 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason why littering is the most common crime - it doesn't require intelligence or planning, and whatever you are holding can instantly become trash.

that's a bit harsh.

Php does not distinguish between arrays and hashmaps, which means that an empty dict serialises to json as `[ ]`. You can configure it to serialise to `{ }` instead, but that's a global setting. No, i don't think I'm being harsh.

Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#315

Post by Capricorn2481 »

pjmlp wrote: post #150
antonvs wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But hey, if LLMs are what drove this person from Haskell to Lisp then all the power to them! I didn't see Lisp mentioned in the article. They moved to Python. Which is certainly a choice.

Yeah, basically all the Lisp without the machine code generation machinery.

Could you go in depth on what you mean by Python being like Lisp? This is no the first time I've heard this but I don't understand it.

Is it just because it's easy to substitute code in on the fly? Doesn't that describe any interpreted language?

Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#316

Post by gravifer »

doug_durham wrote: post #253
antonvs wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "At Scarf, we started doing all new API work in Python." Start the countdown timer for how long it takes them to discover that was a mistake. Nothing to do with Haskell, but good grief, LLMs do not in any way, shape or form save you from the deep, unfixable problems with Python. At the very least you need all the static checking machinery like Ruff, Pyright, and hefty unit tests that take the place of typechecking…

Unfixable errors? Why unfixable? Python is Turing complete. I can see difficult to fix, but not unfixable. LLMs lower the bar to refactoring code mistakes.

So is excel.

I actually enjoy python and astral tools a lot, but I think you are grasping for air here.

Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#317

Post by za3faran »

doug_durham wrote: post #248
ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience as you. We normally use Kotlin for everything, but last year we had to do a small project in Python. Setting up the tooling and choosing the tools is quite overwhelming, and the inconsistency between what the tools actually consider type errors is incredibly frustrating. I am actually happy that the project failed and that we don't have to work in that environment anymore. I think Python is…

Not my experience at all. There are a couple of linters to choose from, and uv is becoming the dominant packaging environment. In my experience it is much easier to write large maintainable projects in Python than in TypeScript. Python has more language features and certainly a much better ecosystem. Who knows where things will go. In the future language choice will be much less important. Languages are largely a hum…

You still need a language/platform that performs well. Python and gang do not when compared to things like the JVM and .NET.

Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#318

Post by rafaelRiv »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #304
ErroneousBosh wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI makes people produce consistently worse results. I will not under any circumstances use AI, not least because it cannot possibly solve a problem I have. At work, I've already had to "fix" some incredibly faulty projects caused by well-intentioned people thinking they can use AI to write code. I started with `rm -rf *` and moved on from there.

That's you and your anecdotal experience against raw data from the entire world. I don't get how people like you give their one off experiences and think that validates their world view when the world is changing right before your fucking eyes. To each their own and agree to disagree because honestly your anecdotal experience is right in front of your own eyes too. I just don't get how you can't reconcile that with t…

And you are being authoritarian by telling us which tools we should use for our careers. At this point, llms have give me more work than anything else

Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#319

Post by za3faran »

aviaviavi wrote: post #73
crux wrote: post #25

I strongly agree with the premise of this article, which is why I am surprised that the author moved away from Haskell to Python. For some time now it’s felt clear (or at least extremely) compelling that agents need fast compile times in order to be effective, especially when you’re working in parallel. But the other thing that has felt just as obvious is that agents need strong type systems and narrow guardrails in…

Main factors were (roughly in order): - None of us are experts in Rust, and we're all solid at Python. - Rust felt like an under-correction for what we wanted (get all friction in front of the LLM out of the way). - Our high-performance stuff is not being migrated at this time (Scarf Gateway), so we're just talking about basic CRUD backends here. Basically any language will work.

Java/Kotlin would have given you what you needed, and more (better observability, performance, etc.)

Re: After 7 years in production, Scarf has reluctantly moved away from Haskell

#320

Post by landdate »

psd1 wrote: post #305
landdate wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

php is a great language. there is a reason why the majority of the web runs on it.

There's a reason why littering is the most common crime - it doesn't require intelligence or planning, and whatever you are holding can instantly become trash.

if you were to ask people to rate crimes on morality i would presume littering would rank among the least immoral.

your point makes no sense. yes, if i had to pick one crime for someone to commit i might pick littering and many people think the same thing because littering is one of the most common crimes.

same thing is true for web development with php.

you absolute moron you don't even understand what you are saying just making random points that have a midwit cleverness, but when thought over by any respectable mind easily prove to be nonsense.

----

how could somebody like you think they deserve life enough to conjure up a breath let alone a word. It's a shame, and one you are too ignorant be aware of.

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