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Job application asked for my SAT scores

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Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#311

Post by gf000 »

WalterBright wrote: post #200
Maxatar wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really comparable... the overwhelming majority of flight tests involve flying an aircraft. There is no meaningful way someone can be excellent at flying an aircraft but can't pass a test which involves flying an aircraft. The same can't be said for many other tests. If the test involves the practical application of the very skill being tested, then that test has direct relevance to he competency of said skill. Bu…

They are never going to let you into a cockpit until you pass ground school, which involves a lot of math. > A teacher can be brilliant in the classroom yet stumble on a standardized certification exam full of pedagogical jargon. A teacher that cannot explain how calculus works cannot teach it to anybody. > a coding interview that relies on whiteboarding algorithms from memory can easily fail an excellent engineer wh…

So you yourself has just given an example how easy it is to temporarily get good at "test-filling", by simply preparing for that.

The question is whether a given test measures anything relevant - did your friend become a better programmer for doing 6 weeks of leetcodes? E.g. what kind of experience did he gain about large code bases and how to handle those? Continuing your analogy, would you fly with a pilot who drilled on taking off a bunch of time, but never practised flying in a storm?

I'm not saying leetcodes or exams are useless, but Goodhart's Law apply.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#312

Post by sir0010010 »

somenameforme wrote: post #300
Newlaptop wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just checked, and the SAT math section covers algebra, trigonometry and statistics. Look at this list: Quadratic equations and functions (vertex form, roots, discriminant) Polynomial operations and factoring Exponential functions and growth/decay Radical and rational expressions Function notation, composite and inverse functions Nonlinear graphs and their transformations A genius student who had never been taught t…

Somebody who goes to take a test on something they know that they know nothing about could be called many things, but genius is not one, even moreso when they're paying for the privilege of taking that test. What is on the SAT is no secret, so people are free to prepare as little or as much as they might like. If somebody can't be assed to prepare for such a critical test, then they're probably going to be the sort o…

You've never met a smart high school student that didn't study? You've also never met someone who became more disciplined later in life?

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#313

Post by sir0010010 »

hammock wrote: post #195
WalterBright wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the notion that tests do not test relevant skills. In my long career I've noticed a strong correlation between SAT scores and academic performance as well as job performance. > I don't think the comparison to flight school is relevant enough in this context because it's a too different of a world to traditional academia. My dad kept his flight school tests for flying all sorts of airplanes. They bear a lo…

> I don't buy the notion that tests do not test relevant skills. In my long career I've noticed a strong correlation between SAT scores and academic performance as well as job performance. SAT tests intelligence (aptitude), not skills. Which is why it correlates with job performance, where intelligence can (over some time) matter as much or more than a starting point of relevant skills.

I guess the question is: would you rather hire someone with poor SATs and god-tier Leetcoding skills or vice-versa?

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#314

Post by fn-mote »

stockresearcher wrote: post #173
stephenbez wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High graduation rates are an important metric to administrators. If a professor gave a failing grade to 1/3 of the class they would be in hot water.

My wife has a civil engineering degree. There were a number of courses where partial credit was not permitted and the final exam was 2 questions. It was common for students to take those courses 3 or 4 times before passing. Giving a failing grade to only 1/3 of the class might get a professor investigated for making the class too easy.

What decade and country?

In the US, this would be a huge outlier.

Unless, somehow this is part of an advanced certification process? I really can’t imagine professionals not knowing how to study for an exam like this. Medical school shows what motivated people can do.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#315

Post by sir0010010 »

WalterBright wrote: post #146
delichon wrote: post #28

Last month 2,400 University of California faculty asked for admissions to resume using the SAT "to ensure foundational fluency." Of course many employers want to ensure that too, especially when college degrees don't anymore. The widening abilities gap followed the 2020 elimination of the SAT/ACT, a temporary measure that has now become a permanent vulnerability. This outcome was explicitly predicted by the Academic…

I always enjoy the advocates who claim that students have mastered their subjects, but "don't test well". Would you want a pilot on your flight who flunked flying school exams, but somehow "really knew how to fly!"?

No, but it'd probably be okay if the pilot flunked their SATs.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#316

Post by gf000 »

WalterBright wrote: post #218
Maxatar wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if you took your SAT among a cohort of people where none of you practiced for the SAT, then what you're saying holds true. That's not really the case anymore. Top tier students nowadays prepare for the SAT, they don't go into it blind and haven't done so for the better part of 20 years.

I didn't get a perfect score, but it was good enough to get what I wanted.

Well, then what if someone with a better score got the job you were going for, even though they are not smarter, just prepared more for the test?

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#318

Post by fmobus »

WalterBright wrote: post #183
andrecarini wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is you're equating `failing a test` to `lacking the relevant skills and knowledge to do a certain task competently`. The reality is sometimes tests in academia are just not very well made and don't really test what they are supposed to be testing, and that's usually due to multiple reasons like misaligned incentives, staffing shortages and maybe lack of resources / funding. I don't think the comparis…

I don't buy the notion that tests do not test relevant skills. In my long career I've noticed a strong correlation between SAT scores and academic performance as well as job performance. > I don't think the comparison to flight school is relevant enough in this context because it's a too different of a world to traditional academia. My dad kept his flight school tests for flying all sorts of airplanes. They bear a lo…

In my country, we have public exams to get into Uni, with the ones for high demand majors being very competitive, but performance in that exam is not a good predictor of academic performance.

The guy who got into my uni class as #2 in that exam dropped out after a few semesters because he couldn't beat calculus. The #4 took several extra semesters to graduate despite not working/not interning. Several others in the top third struggled through. We had _maybe_ 2 or 3 guys who straight-A'd the entire major.

I myself got in as #17 and still failed a few courses. Thankfully no one cared throughout my professional career.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#319

Post by dr_hooo »

gf000 wrote: post #311
WalterBright wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are never going to let you into a cockpit until you pass ground school, which involves a lot of math. > A teacher can be brilliant in the classroom yet stumble on a standardized certification exam full of pedagogical jargon. A teacher that cannot explain how calculus works cannot teach it to anybody. > a coding interview that relies on whiteboarding algorithms from memory can easily fail an excellent engineer wh…

So you yourself has just given an example how easy it is to temporarily get good at "test-filling", by simply preparing for that. The question is whether a given test measures anything relevant - did your friend become a better programmer for doing 6 weeks of leetcodes? E.g. what kind of experience did he gain about large code bases and how to handle those? Continuing your analogy, would you fly with a pilot who dril…

Regardless of the content, a test filters for people willing to put in the work to pass. All else being equal, given two candidates, where one has passed a test and another one who didn't bother, the first one sends a stronger signal to the potential employer.

It's still worth discussing if the particular test is ideal, but the answer IMO is not to say let's remove tests in general.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#320

Post by insane_dreamer »

buildsjets wrote: post #40

You cannot use the SAT as a metric to compare different cohorts. SAT scoring has been revised many times over the years. When I took it the highest possible score was 1600. From 2004 through 2016 the highest score was 2400. Now it is back to 1600 again. Plus, both the content and the format of the exam has changed many times over the years. At times, there was no essay requirement, at times the essay was required, an…

> When I took it the highest possible score was 1600. From 2004 through 2016 the highest score was 2400. Now it is back to 1600 again.

that's because the 2400 score included an 800 point writing component; the math and reading components remained scored at 800 points (and still do now)

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