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Jobs and Software Is Fucked

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Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#311

Post by h4kunamata »

dogwalker5000 wrote: post #205
Ralo wrote: post #85

After 5+ years of actively trying to get into the field (pre AI), I left. I threw my degree in the toilet, I closed my linkedin, and I went to go work in the trades as a diesel mechanic. Greatest choice I've ever made. The pay is great, the work is steady, the coworkers are relaxed and not trying to one up each other. I'm now being paid to go to school, and get raises every year until I'm fully ticketed (way more tha…

Until AI comes for your mechanics job too, https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intell... I feel we are getting the worse of “both worlds”. Fiction has sold AI in the form of Data from Star Trek. A robot with perfect recall of information over a wide range of topics and flawless reasoning. Today’s AI is nothing like Data with its hallucinations but are taking jobs anyway because it’s “good enough” fo…

>Until AI comes for your mechanics job too,

Yes and no!!

New cars are computers on wheel, you need a computer to release the break pad in some cars which is insane.

Now, when it comes to being a mechanic per se, there is no robot able to perform most of the jobs done by a human. Good mechanics are full booked.

Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#312

Post by drdaeman »

tavavex wrote: post #306
drdaeman wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm completely sure management LOVES it cause its cheap and devalues humans. And the tragic bit is that instead of educating them about the pitfalls so everyone's on the same page, a lot of brave hotheads are literally calling for a class war

> educating them about the pitfalls so everyone's on the same page What? They know what they're doing, they have access to the same information we do. There's just too much money in it for them to care about irrelevant things like product quality or the continued employment of anyone but themselves. Their prosperity and usefulness in their position is fully reliant on them not being on the same page. Their incentives…

> They know what they're doing, they have access to the same information we do.

Who? I'm not talking about a few well-known sociopaths that run few well-known transnational corporations and have means to pump and squeeze biggest markets for profit (though I doubt they really know what they're doing). I'm talking about your casual folks in management roles in tons of companies of all sizes out there. Our peers. Just like us, on average, they, put frankly, don't know shit.

There is no "here's how we cook now, when new tools are invented" vetted guidebook anywhere. Can't be - no one had a head start long enough to prove anything. Almost everyone out there are more or less blind kittens from the same litter, applying some heuristics to poke around to see what works and what doesn't, learning what's not to do as it bites us in the ass.

Always been like that - humans learn from their failures. Most - we do during our training and experimentation days (which directly translated into our professional knowledge of things to be avoided), but this time we got caught with our pants down, when many say we gotta try to find something ourselves, or lose out to those who tried and found something of value, and there's something to it.

One can argue the writing was on the wall for years, but ask around and be surprised how many people actually had time and mental capacity to do the predictions, and if they had - how accurate those predictions were. In my bubble, most people are still trying to make sense of things past the very basics. Slightly past "all things AI now", onto "okay, for real, how do we learn to use this where it's a benefit, and don't use this where it's a liability" stage.

Even if you potentially have access to the information (others' experiences and discoveries), you gotta dig it up from all the surrounding noise. Figure out how to validate it. Actually validate it. That's a ton of unplanned effort.

Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#313

Post by joquarky »

lenerdenator wrote: post #59
themgt wrote: post #17

It's not like the job market was that much better before AI infested every single corner of the market, but it supercharged all of the worst aspects of everything. I've seen people supposedly smarter than I advocate for just giving in, conceding to AI coding as it's the future. But doing so means tossing out my friends who make art or the people who work their asses off to properly test and review code or the writers…

Also, never, ever give more of a shit about things than the people leading the effort. Doesn't matter if that's a for-profit enterprise, a FLOSS project, or just a way to pass the time. You cannot and will not force them to care more. Don't waste your time on Earth trying to do so.

Also the more insecure ones will feel threatened that you want their role.

Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#314

Post by fragmede »

falcor84 wrote: post #106
fragmede wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, the question is what would you do with $100 million? I mean I don't have $100 million but I'd give it to the arts after I've taken care of myself well and science. Am I gonna make $100 million playing with AI? I don't even know if I can take care of myself, shit, but the government ain't gonna do that. What are the new jobs after the Saaspocalypse? Well all the money went to those companies and what do those co…

> I mean I don't have $100 million but I'd give it to the arts I might be naive, but rather than giving money "to the arts", I would much prefer to give money "to the people" en masse, and then leave it up to everyone to decide whether they want to make art for art's sake.

When you get $100 million, you can do with it what ever you wish. KLF got $1 million and decided to literally burn it.

Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#315

Post by [deleted] »

IshKebab wrote: post #289
Ralo wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe 10 years ago. Now you have to fight 300 other applicants for an entry position that pays $50k in NYC. The biggest thing for me that pushed me over the edge was thinking, how will I get a mortgage? All this applying, 100s of applications, even if I land a job it's not stable. Maybe it pays more, but I'll be laid off in a year or 2. Then back to 100s of applications while my mortgage is ticking away. I have a fri…

That's really inconsistent with my experience. Are you a game dev maybe? I can believe it for them. Or maybe a web dev. I think if you do anything a bit more technical and "boring" like firmware development or data engineering there's tons of highly paid work, at least in the UK (which has lower salaries than the US for skilled work). > Everything in a car is modular. If it doesn't work, you replace it. Doesn't it re…

[deleted]

Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#316

Post by atleastoptimal »

danaris wrote: post #309
atleastoptimal wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs can’t think What is your definition of thinking?

Well, for one thing, it has to have consciousness behind it. And yes, I know that humans are conscious. And yes, I know that LLMs are not. You can throw out loads of BS philosophy to try to obfuscate these clear, obvious facts, but they both remain true.

Thinking and consciousness are not the same thing imo. At least in that something can show all the faculties of thought without necessarily being conscious. An LLM can still be useful and give you the useful results you want without being conscious.

Like lets say i gave a human and an LLM a tech spec and the LLM created a software product as good as the human, does it matter that there was consciousness behind the human thinking?

Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#317

Post by archagon »

supern0va wrote: post #302
archagon wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AI is good enough now that you can't claim that you aren't using it because you're upholding some higher standard of quality. It is simply a matter of it offending your sensibilities. AI is also great at the mechanics of writing. Should people stop writing? Obviously not. Is there value to coding other than compiling without errors and producing a plausible program as output? Obviously yes. LLMs can’t think and the…

>AI is also great at the mechanics of writing. Should people stop writing? Obviously not. The job of writing is to be read. The job of code is not to be read: it merely helps the humans who write the code. If the code is no longer read by humans, then it no longer needs to be well composed. We want human writers because humans have a better grasp on the ideas and stories that can best move us, and are just better at…

I fundamentally disagree with this take. With regard to higher-level languages, code is a way to create and compose abstractions around data flow, plus a means of communicating this to other developers (including yourself in the future). Every project brings something new to the table. Machines "solving" this is tantamount to machines developing full-on human intelligence and judgement. The best they can provide is a static facsimile without much hope for future innovation or progress: a snapshot of programming best-ish practices circa 2024 or so.

And remember: "just needs to work" includes technical debt, which LLMs are especially great at accruing. When your codebase is composed of 10,000-line, randomly-generated PRs that nobody reads or understands, it's going to be full of untraceable heisenbugs and egregious security holes. What's going to fix them? More 10,000-line PRs? Is it turtles all the way down?

Don't mistake my rage at the egregious state of the industry with sadness. In a year, we've thrown much of everything we've learned about solid engineering out the window.

Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#318

Post by RankingMember »

pixelatedindex wrote: post #140
Ralo wrote: post #85

After 5+ years of actively trying to get into the field (pre AI), I left. I threw my degree in the toilet, I closed my linkedin, and I went to go work in the trades as a diesel mechanic. Greatest choice I've ever made. The pay is great, the work is steady, the coworkers are relaxed and not trying to one up each other. I'm now being paid to go to school, and get raises every year until I'm fully ticketed (way more tha…

> I closed my linkedin, and I went to go work in the trades as a diesel mechanic. Love it! A score of years ago, I considered being an auto mechanic after graduating HS but then ended up back in CompSci. Did you have to go back to school? Did you find a shop that would take you in as an apprentice? And if they did, how did you convince them you can/will be good at the job?

FWIW, there's a huge difference in job quality between diesel and a regular auto mechanic (at least if you're in the states): Unless you work somewhere rare and amazing, auto mechanics typically work within the flat-rate system. In case you're not familiar, this is a joke of a wage system wherein you're not actually paid for the time a job takes, but the time a book says it should take in a perfect world. Rusty fasteners, broken equipment, bad/wrong parts- all the real-world complications that come up during jobs will conspire to make you take longer than book time and, especially for new people, can leave you making less than you'd make in fast food.

Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#319

Post by sinoue »

Speckx, Every downturn frees up talent that leads to the next generation of startups. If your finances can handle risk working for a startup or bootstrapping your own go for it. If you need a job now be sure to circle your connections to get better leverage on the inside track for closing those job interviews. Often times they already have a lead candidate the job was specifically written for. See if you have friends and old bosses that would do the same. I hope when you land where you are going you'll write an update.

Re: Jobs and Software Is Fucked

#320

Post by alsetmusic »

Ralo wrote: post #264
bb88 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think the biggest enjoyment I got from this thread is that programming culture is often toxic in ways that people aren't really ready to admit on this site which is dedicated to computers and programming. I can hear them now: "Surely, you can't be happy with your decision, Mr. Ralo. You're leaving so much money on the table!" And you're saying calmly: "Yes, yes I am." Best of luck to you and your efforts.

I've tried both. I've seen what both offer and I'm so confident in my decision that I just sit back and watch the gong show at this point. My decision gets further cemented when I ask my tech friends how work is going.

I just downgraded the skillset needed and moved back down to dedicated IT. It's so much easier and I have zero job-related stress 95% of the time. I already worked a flashy job with big name recognition. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I want no extra hours or responsibility. It's great.
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