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Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

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Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#311

Post by rwyinuse »

modriano wrote: post #288

Up until 2019, Windows was my daily driver and had been for the prior ~20. years. I had been regularly ssh-ing into Linux machines, but it didn't seem like a place I could live. Then, in 2019, I built a PC and, wanting to get more proficient in Linux environments, I made it a dual boot setup with a Ubuntu desktop partition and a Windows partition, expecting I'd inevitably get frustrated on the Linux partition by side…

I agree. Sometimes one needs Windows for some legacy software, but for 99% of use cases Linux works, is faster and respects your privacy more.

Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#312

Post by saratogacx »

maccard wrote: post #178
criddell wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know IT people often aren't given the time to dig into this stuff, but xperf and event tracing should reveal the culprit fairly quickly. The best resource for this kind of stuff is Bruce Dawson's blog: https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2015/09/24/etw-central/

I'm not IT, I'm' just the senior most engineer in a game studio. Ive got WPA captures that point to windows defender, even with processes and folders excluded. But I have literally no idea what to do with those traces, hence my 99% conviction.

If it is mostly your own tooling you may want to look at setting up a dev drive. It is supposed to be more optimized around workloads that would normally spin stuff like defender off the rails.

    System -> Advanced -> 
      -> For developers -> Developer Mode [on] 
      -> Dev Drive -> Create Dev Drive

Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#313

Post by throw10920 »

gigel82 wrote: post #203
bob1029 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WebView2 can be a fantastic experience when the application is designed around it with intent. It can't be a technological afterthought. Taking an application that was designed for web and throwing it in a desktop shell is how you wind up with bad experiences. A hybrid of WebView2 and native elements seems to be the best approach. You can completely hide the browser startup delay with these techniques. The Discord en…

Until you look at memory consumption in Task Manager or Process Explorer. WebView2 spawns ~400Mb worth of various browser processes. Your main app process by itself might look nice and slim, but all that (somewhat hidden) cost is atrocious.

I have 16 GB of RAM on my laptop, and I'm told that's relatively little nowadays. Even after the OS's 2 GB cut, I can run 35 applications that use 400 MB each. I don't even have 35 applications that I care about. (and I'm certainly not going to want to run more than, say, three email clients)

RAM usage at that scale might not be desirable, but any engineer knows that it's the result of a tradeoff where the other options take longer to develop. I would rather have an application that uses 400 MB now than a slimmer one in several years, or one that uses less memory but is extremely slow in some corporate environments (like older Outlook).

(please don't respond to quibble about the napkin math)

Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#314

Post by maccard »

fluoridation wrote: post #303
9x39 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disk encryption is also mandated in most enterprises. I do not mean to patronize, it's just the enterprise-y stuff has tried locking down the PCs for exactly this reason - deleting the security tools when they're not loaded would be of course very effective. On top of that, showing such motivation can expose people to violating the 782 commandments of whatever corporate IT policy someone had to sign to get a paycheck…

Eugh. Well, whatever. Not like it makes any difference to the employee. They get paid whether they're waiting for the computer to finish spinning or doing useful work.

We’re spending $4-8000 on these machines to try and offset these problems.

The problem is that there’s 100 of these “little” issues - and I have a full time job that _isnt_ doing IT support. If someone can help me find an IT support contractor that I can hire that will fix it I’d love to chat to them, but it goes in the pile alongside “why on earth does teams take longer to boot than my entire machine” and “why are we using zoom (because the person who makes the decision there prefers zoom to teams”)

Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#315

Post by maccard »

saratogacx wrote: post #312
maccard wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not IT, I'm' just the senior most engineer in a game studio. Ive got WPA captures that point to windows defender, even with processes and folders excluded. But I have literally no idea what to do with those traces, hence my 99% conviction.

If it is mostly your own tooling you may want to look at setting up a dev drive. It is supposed to be more optimized around workloads that would normally spin stuff like defender off the rails. System -> Advanced -> -> For developers -> Developer Mode [on] -> Dev Drive -> Create Dev Drive

I need to write the blog post. I keep being told this, and it’s not the solution.

After a reboot, on an NVMe dev drive with no disk encryption, first launch of our internal application (unreal editor) takes 9 minutes on my workstation. If I disable windows defender before launching it, it takes 30 seconds. If I add all the processes as exclusions, and add the workspace folder as an exclusion to defender… 9 minutes.

edit:

I didn't mean to direct this at you. I mean that it's somehow gained traction as being the solution to slow filesystem access, but the reality is it's just broken.

Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#316

Post by e12e »

e12e wrote: post #61
SoKamil wrote: post #31

Outlook for Mac is surprisingly good, though. Every interaction feels (and is) native. Kudos to the team. I think this is same team that maintains Office Suite for Mac. I hope to see Teams for Mac in the future. Current Teams app is dogshit.

Surprisingly good is a stretch. Barley adequate more like it. Now that they've hidden mail access behind oauth (imap and SMTP, additionally SMTP behind global default off policy) and graph api behind oauth2 - it looks like they don't have to worry about real mail clients competing. Actually fighting [f] to get mail in/out working with freescout right now - and having had learn more than I care to about o365 and Power…

Correction - not "my" but "mu" (mail utils):

https://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/

Btw, anyone still reading/participating mailing lists? From MacOS? Have you found a reasonable client?

I'm not even going to try with Outlook.

Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#317

Post by Eric_WVGG »

rafterydj wrote: post #193
Eric_WVGG wrote: post #174

hey, I have a question for any product managers who are in charge of making decisions re: rebuilding app UI in Electron, like 1Password with their entire app, Adobe with their dialog boxes, Windows with their Start Bar (!#@!$!) My understanding was that the proposition of Electron is that it’s there's some cross-platform advantages, also it’s basically easier and you can hire a junior dev to wing it. My understanding…

Not a product manager but I habitually try to play devil's advocate as one. I think it's popularity, full stop. You _could_ vibe code a native app no problem - but then you're targeting one set of hardware. If you're already just vibing it, why not make something that will work cross-platform while you're at it? And if an LLM is prompted with that, they'll usually go with the popular choice: web app on Electron.

Okay, but Windows isn't cross-platform.

Adobe is but they have a ginormous multi-decade codebase that mastered cross-platform UI ages, an LLM coding assistant ought to be able to "add a range input here using our standard UI library" much more easily than "rebuild this with Electron."

1Password at least has a decent excuse for a rotten decision.

Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#318

Post by tevrede »

rescbr wrote: post #270
esikich wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not conversations, actual data. Think reports, invoices, large PDFs, etc. Emailing files to yourself, that sort of thing. Then they end up with multiple PSTs.

I very much prefer Outlook's indexing compared to Sharepoint's shitty UI and search capabilities.

Copilot search is great for searching SharePoint

Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#319

Post by fluoridation »

maccard wrote: post #310
fluoridation wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't you disable on a per-user basis? Everyone shouldn't be punished just because a few people can't be careful with their stuff.

The person mentioned is a special case but the reality is that most people do need _something_. What happens if one trusted person makes a mistake and submits an exe to perforce? Now absolutely everyone is hosed.

Why would everyone be hosed just because a binary got committed to version control? Either way, surely you can set up some policies or monitoring for that sort of thing.

I don't know, I've been developing on Windows for decades without an antivirus and I've never had these issues. Are your people downloading and installing random software all the time? In my experience, once I'm set up with my usual tools I rarely need to install anything else.

Re: Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly

#320

Post by rstupek »

zchrykng wrote: post #301
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Got an example of a well-implemented natice app for email? Mail.app isn't total shit. It's not great. But it doesn't fumble the basics, like Outlook for Mac, which thinks it's fine to take like 10s to show me my inbox.

Mail.app's search is completely and utterly broken in my experience on Macs and on iPhones.

It looks like Apple is addressing this with the next release of macOS/iOS
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