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Leaving Mozilla

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Re: Leaving Mozilla

#311

Post by progval »

FireBeyond wrote: post #230
progval wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Netsplits It's not inherent to the protocol. https://ergo.chat/ does not have netsplits (from having a single server) and https://github.com/Libera-Chat/sable replaces the server-to-server protocol to eliminate netsplits as well. And even when not eliminated entirely, they are infrequent and barely visible on well-managed networks like Libera.Chat. Many chat platforms have more (and longer) outages than Libera has…

I mean the word "Relay" in Internet Relay Chat was meant to refer to relaying between servers. Larger networks even had some hub servers that didn't allow users to connect at all, and existed to be server interchanges. IRCv3 missed the boat by years. By 2016, when the working group was formed, IRC was already well past its glory years. Even then, it took til the 2020s before any major network fully adopted it. Becaus…

> The IRCv3 WG was convened near the end of 2016, so 9 or so.

SASL support in IRC predates IRCv3.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#312

Post by DrewADesign »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #276
DrewADesign wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty sad. I knew a lot of people in the union crafts (New England, which is way different from LA from what I hear) during the good times and they said it was all great, but as soon as things got tight, it was tribal as fuck. (The IATSE set building roster went from a few hundred dues-paying members to a couple dozen, and most of them were persistently out of work… it is in pretty bad shape, so there’s only so…

Dude vfx houses are awful. They pull insane hours, win awards, and then get shut down. It’s working as a video game dev by all accounts. My buddy worked Bladerunner 2049 and the third post house he’s worked at since just shut down.

Even the video game industry reformed significantly after the bad press they got a few years ago. I mostly know people at Rockstar, but also Blizzard and Epic and they said they’ve really rented over a new leaf. I’ve still heard bad things about CD Projekt Red. It’s crazy how shit the VFX houses are.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#313

Post by godelski »

thisislife2 wrote: post #266
Latty wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I absolutely agree it sucks they didn't deliver the opt-out/in interface day one, it was obvious people would want it, and yes, it's not the first time they've blundered. At the same time, they did listen to the feedback and deliver. It now has a genuinely good interface for it where you don't have to opt out of everything, but can opt-in where you want it. It's not just a big off button, it's a general out-out…

That is true - Firefox is definitely held to a higher standard here and elsewhere. They marketed those values to us. So the criticisms, in my opinion, are definitely justified. And no, they aren't listening to their users. If they had listened to their users they would have delivered what every users wants - just a browser . Not some kind of "platform" stuffed with lot of unwanted crap that makes it bloated and intro…

  > If they had listened to their users
It seems to me like they are. A lot of people actually use those AI features. Particularly translate. The other I like is semantic search. Those are genuinely useful things.

When people are complaining about AI it seems vague and like they're complaining about something else not related to Firefox. What is it, the optional chatbot side window? I agree that's annoying, but it's pretty easy to go about your life not knowing it even exists. The new preview thing is annoying, but the complaints all happened when it was only translate and the chat box.

It seems like people are just complaining about AI but directing that to Mozilla. For translate I can say that they were much more ethical than most companies. They used volunteer work and have an open dataset. They don't seem to be out here stealing artists' work or scrapping the entire internet left and right, they seem to be using AI as directed useful features. Small and local models, not chatbots.

I'm not going to say Mozilla doesn't have lots of problems, it certainly does. But the outrage over this doesn't seem to be about those things. If those are the problems, any Geko browser is miles ahead of any chromium browser. Even if you use a degoogled chromium you're still giving Google control over the internet. If you have problems with Mozilla, then just be direct. If you have problems with AI, just be direct about it (it's not like there aren't a million problems there too!). But if we conflate the two we don't even give Mozilla the chance to respond to users because the feedback is meaningless. And if you expect them to "just know", well... how would they? They're not Google, they aren't monitoring every single little thing you do.

The reason people are pushing back against the Mozilla hate is because we're just tired of chrome winning. That's all that this hate has done. And if you're that passionate about AI, just go to a fork. There are plenty and you've already established yourself as a power user, so I know you know how to google. Fwiw, I like Zen, but it's not completely anti AI either.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#314

Post by godelski »

vitally3643 wrote: post #273
Krssst wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are those dark patterns? It's an off button, it works, and it does not get back on. It's the polar opposite of the "maybe later, I'll ask again every week and reset the setting in your back" unfortunate norm that plagues a lot of major proprietary software/service.

"You can turn it off" is not in the same category of "would you like to turn this on?" or even "do you want this in the first place?" Opt-out is not consent, nor is it respect . Opt-out is a dark pattern, period. Opt-out is forcing something onto users and hoping they don't go out of their way to disable it. It is the same as "maybe later".

  > Opt-out is a dark pattern, period.
No it isn't. All you're doing is making it harder to talk about dark patterns.

You want to know dark patterns?

How about having to physically mail a letter to cancel your news subscription or gym membership?

How about burying your "delete account" button so its only findable by third party websites who keep the correct link up to date. And they still try to convince you to deactivate instead.

How about making you pay to cancel your subscription?

How about the frequent tip begging on online orders or at a fucking fast food location? Especially when the lowest option is 20%!

A default with a clearly labeled section in the settings (that's searchable!) is NOT a dark pattern. It is not tricking you in any way. You may be annoyed by the default, and you have every right to, but by calling this a dark pattern you just make it harder to talk about all the above stuff because you trivialize them. Because at the end of the day, every binary option has to be toggled in one direction or another. Do not conflate these things

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#315

Post by godelski »

DANmode wrote: post #296
jlarocco wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Firefox gets hated on more than the others because they advertise putting the user in control but in practice they seem to undermine it at every opportunity. A browser that puts users in control should make features like AI and advertising opt-in because there is a sizeable group of people who are concerned about those things. It's meaningless if they only put users in control who agree 100% with Mozilla's wa…

Say what you need to say: Google pays the bills over there, it’ll never be an effective, scrappy organization again as long as that’s the case.

  > as long as that’s the case
So until people decide it's worth donating to.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#316

Post by godelski »

franga2000 wrote: post #43
red_admiral wrote: post #6

Respect. This is what Firefox could have been. In the real world, in the same line as the article suggests, there was a brief time when the "puts you back in control" browser needed you to change the following about:config settings to disable the force-pushed ai: browser.ml.enable, browser.ml.chat.enabled, browser.ml.chat.sidebar, browser.ml.chat.menu, browser.ml.chat.page, extensions.ml.enabled, browser.ml.linkPrevi…

You're complaning that the browser that "puts you back in control" ... put you back in control of which AI features you want to enable/disable? How horrible! What? They didn't make these 10 distinct features one single all-or-nothing button? They let you switch them on or off individually?? How dare they?!? What? They shipped new features to the browser...turned on?!? Instead of spending all those development hours a…

  > No 4 GB model was downloaded.
Oh no! Mozilla downloaded a 50MB file onto my computer after I asked it to translate a page for me. Those batards!!!!

I'm not convinced anyone complaining even knows what they're complaining about. The AI features Mozilla has is pretty minimal and there's a good fucking reason they didn't add a nuke button in the beginning. Because most people like translate. The chat sidebar? Most people I know that use Firefox didn't even know it existed till I showed them. The only other model that existed at the time was a 20MB tab grouper. The complaints felt reactionary to AI (rightfully) but for some reason targeted Mozilla, the company that wasn't shoving AI down your throat

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#317

Post by Forgeties79 »

DrewADesign wrote: post #312
Forgeties79 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude vfx houses are awful. They pull insane hours, win awards, and then get shut down. It’s working as a video game dev by all accounts. My buddy worked Bladerunner 2049 and the third post house he’s worked at since just shut down.

Even the video game industry reformed significantly after the bad press they got a few years ago. I mostly know people at Rockstar, but also Blizzard and Epic and they said they’ve really rented over a new leaf. I’ve still heard bad things about CD Projekt Red. It’s crazy how shit the VFX houses are.

Not so sure about R* https://www.dexerto.com/gta/fired-gta-6-devs-speak-out-about...

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#318

Post by DrewADesign »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #317
DrewADesign wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the video game industry reformed significantly after the bad press they got a few years ago. I mostly know people at Rockstar, but also Blizzard and Epic and they said they’ve really rented over a new leaf. I’ve still heard bad things about CD Projekt Red. It’s crazy how shit the VFX houses are.

Not so sure about R* https://www.dexerto.com/gta/fired-gta-6-devs-speak-out-about...

Oh that’s too bad. They had a good run at least.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#319

Post by DANmode »

godelski wrote: post #315
DANmode wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say what you need to say: Google pays the bills over there, it’ll never be an effective, scrappy organization again as long as that’s the case.

> as long as that’s the case So until people decide it's worth donating to.

or until they can go back to shipping a browser for under $400M yearly.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#320

Post by thisislife2 »

godelski wrote: post #313
thisislife2 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true - Firefox is definitely held to a higher standard here and elsewhere. They marketed those values to us. So the criticisms, in my opinion, are definitely justified. And no, they aren't listening to their users. If they had listened to their users they would have delivered what every users wants - just a browser . Not some kind of "platform" stuffed with lot of unwanted crap that makes it bloated and intro…

> If they had listened to their users It seems to me like they are. A lot of people actually use those AI features. Particularly translate. The other I like is semantic search. Those are genuinely useful things. When people are complaining about AI it seems vague and like they're complaining about something else not related to Firefox. What is it, the optional chatbot side window? I agree that's annoying, but it's pr…

Thank you for engaging politely and reasonably in discussing this. My complaint wasn't about AI ... it is about force-bundling whatever this-will-make-us-money-feature or we-think-its-a-great-feature idea into the browser without giving the user any real choice (or control) in the matter.

I am not against Firefox management exploring alternate revenue streams or even "innovative" feature ideas. In fact, mostly everyone here supports Firefox diversifying its revenue stream from Google, in an ethical manner. Personally, all my criticism (and increasing mistrust) stem from the way they have gone about and done it when there are better alternative ways to present these ideas to the user and respectfully persuade them to accept it without outraging them. (Especially the "power" users, because that's who are the most irritated by these shenanigans and are the loudest with their criticism). And in my previous comment, I've already outlined one way to do it - ensure the core browser (the actual product that you offer) is independent and separate. Everything that isn't a "core browser" feature or has a privacy implications or has a monetising component in it should only be offered as extensions or plugins that the user (not Mozilla or Firefox) fully controls (which means no more bundling these kind of features as "system" add-ons - https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/toolkit/mozapps/exte... ).

Do you agree with me that this approach is better, as it would not only increase trust in Firefox but also reduce complaints?

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