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He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

diabettech.com

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Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#311

Post by endymion-light »

nclin_ wrote: post #304
endymion-light wrote: post #43

There's an incredibly serious lack of education with how LLMs & carb-counting works. This entire article would be better suited to astrology.com than hackernews. When I opened it up, I assumed the author would have at least attempted a calculation service, maybe even placed something like the size of the meal into an actual model, using the integration of pre-existing tools that are (slightly more) accurate. Hell - m…

He was directly addressing apps that claim to do so, and proving that they can't, with laypeople who might have diabetes as the target audience. It's more a data-driven pub test, I think it explains itself well. The question is - are those apps actually so simplistic? Or is this a strawman.

I guess that's partially my original point summarised; I'd like to see this criticism levied at the apps advertising it - rather than using something that doesn't

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#312

Post by emadda »

jerkstate wrote: post #183
emadda wrote: post #90

Related: I created an app to track the molecules in your foods: https://kg.enzom.dev/ You specify your foods in grams with plaintext (no pictures). I never liked the "take a picture to measure calories" approach, as you could have 10 table spoons of olive oil which would drastically change the calories but would not show in a picture.

This is really cool. I vibe coded almost exactly the same app, mine also tracks saturated fat, cholesterol, sodium, and fiber (I'm getting older so these macros are pretty important to me). One of the really cool things you can do if you have tool calling hooked up is to have the LLM analyze your diet and tell you what you can do better to hit your targets - swap pizza for pasta, decrease the amount of cheese you put…

Thanks.

It is using Gemini Flash 3 at the moment.

There is a lot to learn in nutrition. The glycemic load metric is quite revealing for pizza vs pasta (slow digesting carbs are supposed to be better). Al-dente cooked pasta is also slower digesting than well cooked pasta.

Another interesting thing is how each plant food has unique molecules that can be health promoting in humans. That was one aspect I wanted to reveal/compare for the foods I ate.

Dr Weil / Perfect Health Diet / Marks Daily Apple are three sources I like to check for information on nutrition.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#313

Post by genewitch »

devilbunny wrote: post #256
The_Blade wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is good to know. presented this way i find LLM behavior to be a feature, not a bug. then again i think everything is value add over pen and paper / notepad / spreadsheet and maybe a friend or doctor (or specialized equipment if you need more than calorie in, calorie out). just go exercise and don't be a lard lad

> just go exercise and don't be a lard lad You can out-exercise almost any diet, but it takes 3-4 hours a day of a hard workout. If calories in, calories out was useful advice rather than a banal statement of physics, nobody would be fat.

> If calories in, calories out was useful advice rather than a banal statement of physics

it's also wrong, or at least imprecise. fat and bone and muscle all weigh different amounts, at the same volume.

the only way i've been able to explain the science to laypersons is thus:

if you and a friend both weigh 200lbs, but you once weighed 250lbs and your friend has never weighed more than 200lbs; all else equal: you must ingest less calories than your friend to maintain 200lb body weight.

your body will try to "outlast the famine" if you had to lose a lot of weight (or lost a lot of weight for any reason).

That absolutely does not comport with "calories in, calories out". It's also why the people who were never fat have no problem "just eating a donut."

no, i won't cite, this has been published many times in the last decade, 13 years.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#314

Post by ifwinterco »

machomaster wrote: post #257
ifwinterco wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair this is a reflection of the general state of nutritional science and the actual answer seems to be "it depends on your genes". Some people do well on 6 small meals, others do well on no breakfast and two large ones. Studies can't tell you anything useful about that, you have to experiment and find out what works best for you

The answer does not really depend on genes. There are personal preferences, there are sex differences (women prefer more carbs), and the biggest component is where you are and in which direction do you want to go to. But in terms of physiology the answer is quite clear: 1. The protein is the most important macro to get, no matter if bulking or cutting. It is the building block. 2. Whatever the amounts (0.8g-1.8g/kg o…

Optimum meal timing in particular I believe is heavily influenced by genes - I have friends who never eat breakfast, survive on black coffee until 1PM, then eat a lot in the evening and feel good doing it. If I do that I feel terrible.

So yes eat 2g/kg protein but the best way to time that in terms of meals, best specific foods to eat etc is definitely influenced by your genes

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#315

Post by devilbunny »

genewitch wrote: post #313
devilbunny wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just go exercise and don't be a lard lad You can out-exercise almost any diet, but it takes 3-4 hours a day of a hard workout. If calories in, calories out was useful advice rather than a banal statement of physics, nobody would be fat.

> If calories in, calories out was useful advice rather than a banal statement of physics it's also wrong, or at least imprecise. fat and bone and muscle all weigh different amounts, at the same volume. the only way i've been able to explain the science to laypersons is thus: if you and a friend both weigh 200lbs, but you once weighed 250lbs and your friend has never weighed more than 200lbs; all else equal: you must…

Eh, it totally does comport with calories in, calories out. We just don't hook people up to metabolic carts in day-to-day life, but that's really the only way to measure the calories out part.

The physics of CICO are undeniable. Humans don't photosynthesize. The biology of CICO is useless.

- former fat guy. I'm deeply, personally aware of how useless CICO is as dietary advice.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#316

Post by kalleboo »

senordevnyc wrote: post #216
kalleboo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the author just took pictures of food & expected a realistic response? There are very popular apps on the App Store right now that are going viral among non-techie people that do exactly this, and they have no concept of how AI works. My wife was talking about one and I had to give her a reality check that the AI had no idea what ingredients were used to make the food. And she's a licensed nutritionalist. Studi…

licensed nutritionalist Nutritionist?

Haha oops. English is hard...

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#317

Post by whazor »

kalleboo wrote: post #142
endymion-light wrote: post #43

There's an incredibly serious lack of education with how LLMs & carb-counting works. This entire article would be better suited to astrology.com than hackernews. When I opened it up, I assumed the author would have at least attempted a calculation service, maybe even placed something like the size of the meal into an actual model, using the integration of pre-existing tools that are (slightly more) accurate. Hell - m…

> But the author just took pictures of food & expected a realistic response? There are very popular apps on the App Store right now that are going viral among non-techie people that do exactly this, and they have no concept of how AI works. My wife was talking about one and I had to give her a reality check that the AI had no idea what ingredients were used to make the food. And she's a licensed nutritionalist. Studi…

The real benchmark should be comparing the amounts with a human guess. And aa far as I know with diabetes if you are within 30% of guessing carbs then you should be fine.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#318

Post by arc-in-space »

drrotmos wrote: post #158
jaccola wrote: post #6

It’s just an impossible problem. Photons don’t provide sufficient information to determine calories (at least not in any way they could practically be captured). Inside that sandwich could be drenched with olive oil or it could be hollow cheese with lettuce. It’s impossible to tell.

It is and it isn't. If you ask a human how many calories (or carbs) are in that sandwich, they can give you a qualified guess based on how a sandwich like that is typically constructed. They may not know the calories for a slice of bread or a slice of cheese by heart, but if you give them a food database, they can look it up. They absolutely won't be 100% correct (bread sizes e.g. are going to be an estimate), but un…

I'm surprised how many comments in this thread swear by the position that you literally can't tell based on a picture, as if eating trick foods designed to mislead you was an everyday occurence. Most of the time in typical use you could make a reasonable guess, maybe with some obvious caveats such as "well idk if that Coke is Diet or not so"

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#319

Post by red-iron-pine »

xnx wrote: post #298
kalleboo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the author just took pictures of food & expected a realistic response? There are very popular apps on the App Store right now that are going viral among non-techie people that do exactly this, and they have no concept of how AI works. My wife was talking about one and I had to give her a reality check that the AI had no idea what ingredients were used to make the food. And she's a licensed nutritionalist. Studi…

Even simpler examples make the limitations obvious. Images can't distinguish Diet Coke from Coke.

diet coke in a glass, or in a can?

cuz it says in big bold letters DIET COKE on the side of one of those.

OCR modules in AI is a thing, so I'd hope it could...

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#320

Post by machomaster »

ifwinterco wrote: post #314
machomaster wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer does not really depend on genes. There are personal preferences, there are sex differences (women prefer more carbs), and the biggest component is where you are and in which direction do you want to go to. But in terms of physiology the answer is quite clear: 1. The protein is the most important macro to get, no matter if bulking or cutting. It is the building block. 2. Whatever the amounts (0.8g-1.8g/kg o…

Optimum meal timing in particular I believe is heavily influenced by genes - I have friends who never eat breakfast, survive on black coffee until 1PM, then eat a lot in the evening and feel good doing it. If I do that I feel terrible. So yes eat 2g/kg protein but the best way to time that in terms of meals, best specific foods to eat etc is definitely influenced by your genes

It's all about subjective habits.

But physiologically speaking there is no difference in the optimal recommendation in terms of protein synthesis: protein should be evenly divided between evenly spaced meals.

If people decide that this non-optimal way of life fits them better, then go for it. But let's stop with the "I feel better this way, therefore biologically my body works differently than any other human body." BS.

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