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Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

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Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#311

Post by boringg »

QuarterReptile wrote: post #306
nradov wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, only the dullards need a lot of repetition. I've seen brighter kids pick those subjects up extremely quickly.

Your "brighter kids" probably did their reps already, when you weren't watching. My 4 year old likes to quiz me on addition and subtraction at the dinner table -- two years from now, in some school, it'll look like he 'just gets it', which he will, but only because he already did his reps.

Couldn't agree more with you. I have kids of the same ilk. There certainly a differential in children's natural aptitude but they all do reps either publicly or privately - many people just don't realize it e.g. OP.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#312

Post by jjk166 »

selcuka wrote: post #257
jjk166 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The decrease from 2012 to 2020 was much less and generally not statistically significant. Further 2012 was the all time high, you'd expect some regression to the mean.

> Further 2012 was the all time high It's an all time high because it started declining after that. You'd expect some regression, but you don't expect it to fall back to 1980s levels.

That's how all time highs work, yes. And it didn't fall to 1980s levels, 2020 was tied for second highest all time in math and was 1 point behind second highest all time in reading.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#313

Post by RyanOD »

Amezarak wrote: post #205
RyanOD wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes to this! What makes a great teacher is the willingness to hold kids accountable for their behavior and their work. Sure, it helps to be a subject expert, but that won't matter if you can't manage your classroom. And parents play an equally important role. One of the best things you can do for your child's education/life is support the teacher when they call you up and say, "Your child is making poor decisions..."

> Sure, it helps to be a subject expert, but that won't matter if you can't manage your classroom. I've known plenty of highly credentialed teachers that were very poor communicators and/or could not manage their classroom. I think the idea that this can be, or is, effectively taught as part of the "education major" is very suspect. Indeed, the worst-performing school districts are precisely those where "classroom ma…

My first year of teaching high school mathematics was nearly a disaster. Managing my classroom was a nightmare. Fortunately, we had winter break which gave me an opportunity to step back and reflect honestly on why and I realized I was making a number of mistakes so I made some necessary adjustments and things went much better thereafter. I firmly believe the first year of teaching is when many teachers either rise up or give up.

Regarding managing kids...every school I've worked at (or my wife has worked at) has a mix of kids who are ready to learn and who need to be taught to learn. That includes districts in more wealthy areas and less wealthy areas.

In fact, my wife would tell you the students who cause the most problems in her classroom are from more affluent families. Why? Because they have entitled parents who don't hold their kids accountable and don't support the teacher.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#314

Post by RyanOD »

mothballed wrote: post #220
RyanOD wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes to this! So many people turn a blind eye to the critical role parents play in supporting teachers holding kids accountable. And I get it, holding kids accountable is very, very challenging, but that's the gig people sign up for when they decide to have a family. And I'm a former high school teacher and my wife is a current high school teacher so I've experienced all of this first-hand.

It's also becoming increasingly more likely to enter into college with lower relative and absolute high school performance. Perhaps some wonder why they should try so hard in HS, when most anyone that graduates can get into college, and no employer is asking a college grad what their high school grades and scores were. There was a time back in the 60s or 70s or earlier when anyone that graduated HS could get a decent…

Students should "try harder" in high school because the point of school isn't to "get into college". The point is to learn how to learn and become better at problem solving. It is my opinion that being a good problem solver is the entire point of education.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#315

Post by bdangubic »

frm88 wrote: post #289
bdangubic wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

touch typing is about as useful as … (whatever is the most useless thing). science? I spent years in science classes from elem all the way through uni, physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, you name it, about as useful to me (and 99.6% of my classmates) as russian I learned along the way too. cursive is art and everyone needs a little art. my kid goes to private school and non-cursive is practically forbidden (you are…

touch typing is about as useful as … (whatever is the most useless thing). I disagree. I cannot count the times I typed a documentation from an audio device without pausing the device once. Even short converstions in parallel are no problem. Being able to type without sight, by pure muscle memory is an invaluable skill. Edit: also, try typing a dissertation in a two finger henpeck system and see how long it takes you…

> I cannot count the times I typed a documentation from an audio device without pausing the device once.

you do know we have tools that transcribe audio, yes? :)

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#316

Post by crabbone »

zozbot234 wrote: post #295
crabbone wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This fails with a sizeable portion of adults... and you expect children to somehow understand delayed gratification? To force themselves ? Have you ever met an actual child? Just a week ago mine found and devoured a pack of cookies that were meant for supper and then cried at supper that there weren't any cookies left, choking on a hated apple instead. Guess he won't do it again in a week if there's another pack of c…

> Just a week ago mine found and devoured a pack of cookies that were meant for supper and then cried at supper that there weren't any cookies left This was famously tested with the Stanford marshmallow experiment. A sizeable fraction of kids - preschool kids, no less - can in fact learn not to eat the marshmallow.

Can learn? -- I'm sure! Will they learn without any "encouragement"? -- Absolutely not.

There are millions of people struggling to get on a diet, to quit smoking, to stop doom-scrolling their choice of social media. Most of them know very well how good it would be to stop doing bad things and start doing something good instead, and yet they don't.

Children are worse, overall, because life isn't as harsh for them as it is for adults. An alcoholic who can't quit drinking is risking his marriage, his career, on top of his health, and still pulls out a stashed flask and takes a sip. The worst that can happen to a child is that their parents will yell at him / her? That's a very weak deterrent against doing something that offers instant gratification.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#317

Post by jjk166 »

catcowcostume wrote: post #267
jjk166 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also not possible to carry around enough books with you to allow you to jump from one to another whenever you get bored It most certainly is.

What really is the point of this comment?

Is it not obvious?

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#318

Post by stogot »

japhyr wrote: post #22

People are talking about Covid, smartphones/screens, social media, and AI. No one has mentioned defunding public education yet. In Alaska, where I lived most of the last 20 years, education has been largely flat funded for about a decade now. Imagine running an organization in 2026 on that organization's 2016 budget. Schools have a bunch of obligations they have to spend on. Every time health care costs for staff go…

Read “dumbing us down” and it will change your mind.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#319

Post by boelboel »

weberer wrote: post #254
boelboel wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analysis is rather weak, just a linear regression with 2 variables it seems. I'm not saying there's a direct link of school spending and academic performance but this is barely trying. Your average undergrad could've made a better study.

Could you link an alternative study?

One of the latest papers by Hanushek, the person who tends to be cited by those against public school spending "U.S. SCHOOL FINANCE: RESOURCES AND OUTCOMES" gives a more mixed overview. Basically saying it matters somewhat depending on what it's spend on and only moderate improvements.

The paper gives an overview of more recent research mostly using quasi-experiments. Before 2000 or even 2010 just doing some linear regressions was more common. Anyway my view is similar to Hanushek in short/medium terms. I do believe long term the pay of teachers, and therefore extra spending, is an important factor in keeping teaching prestigious compared to other jobs. In the US partly because of its strong private sector this is a lot more difficult/failed, I'm not sure if it's possible to fix since spending is only one part of it.

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