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Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

terriblesoftware.org

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Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#311

Post by nopurpose »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #293
nopurpose wrote: post #285

Adjacent to it are PR reviews. Suggesting simpler approach in PR almost always causes friction: work is done and tested, why redo? It also doesn't make a good promotion material: keeping landscape clear of overengineered solutions is not something management recognises as a positive contribution.

Depends on the management and whether they're involved in coding. Any engineering manager, architect, senior / lead developer etc should appreciate lower complexity. Of course, if it's the person in charge introducing said overengineering there is a problem.

they can recognise on the informal level, but you can't put it into end of the year review document. What it will be? "Kept N PRs from introducing cruft into our systems?". Fixing or building things is much more visible, than just maintaining high standards.

Worse, to suggest a simpler approach checking existing products/APIs or even preparing toy prototype is required to be confident in own advice. This hidden work is left entirely unnoticed even by well meaning managers/engineers: they simply don't know if you knew or had to discover simpler solution.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#313

Post by musesum »

reedlaw wrote: post #299
musesum wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good idea. Am still a bit shy around token budget spend.

This seems like a perfect use case for a local model. But I've found in practice that the system requirements for agents are much higher than for models that can handle simple refactoring tasks. Once tool use context is factored in, there is very little room for models that perform decently.

What I hope to do with refactoring is to distill namespace and common patterns into a DSL. I am very curious about what tradeoffs you found.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#314

Post by wrs »

sovietswag wrote: post #249
bilsbie wrote: post #73

I had an interview question. What would you do if two different people were emailing a spreadsheet back and forth to track something? I said I’d move them to google sheets. There was about five minutes of awkwardness after that as I was interviewing for software developer. I was supposed to talk about what kind of tool I’d build. I found it kind of eye opening but I’m still not sure what the right lesson to learn was…

Ha! I just had a debate about this with my friend. A certain ferry company uses a big Google Sheet to track where all of its vessels are currently docked in their home port, as well as which employee is assigned to which vessel for the day, etc (it's very information dense with color coding, and employees check it daily to get their vessel assignment). My friend thought this was completely unacceptable for a big comp…

My startup used Google Sheets as a CRM until we discovered there’s a 3 million row limit (by running into it) and had to build something else. Sheets is amazing. Don’t forget to lock that first header row, though.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#315

Post by upofadown »

I actually got a job for deleting code. I was fixing a problem on a contract and noticed that I could fix the problem by getting rid of the section that contained the problem. The functionality could be provided in a much simpler way. Later the company created a position and I was given first refusal before they interviewed anyone.

It was a 8 bit embedded application in something like 10k of code. When I left I generated a short and clear explanation of why what I had done was awesome in terms of their future business ... because that is what you have to do if you work contracts. Which is the real message of the article. You have to write things up.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#317

Post by Traster »

bluGill wrote: post #192
Traster wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of my favourite interview questions too. I ask a design question that technically could be solved using the specialist skillset I interview for but it would be insane to actually do that in the real world. It's a good opener to see how practical and open minded they really are.

Is it? I have long thought that most things business people are using a spreadsheet for belongs someplace else. They are easy ways to run quick what-ifs or make lists, but generally the right answer is update the system so they don't need a spreadsheet. If the data is financials - why can't your accounting system give everyone the view they need from the shared system? Othertimes what they really need are a database…

I didn't quite mean it that way. My question is basically asking "Does this hammer know that not every problem is a nail". To give a specific answer to your question, my accounting system is excel, and "everyone" is me. There are definitely plenty of places where a database makes sense. But it's also important for database engineers to understand where databases don't make sense. It's kind of like that old problem we had where people would keep on saying "We can do X with blockchain" and the typical answer is "ok but that's worse".

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#318

Post by GuB-42 »

bilsbie wrote: post #73

I had an interview question. What would you do if two different people were emailing a spreadsheet back and forth to track something? I said I’d move them to google sheets. There was about five minutes of awkwardness after that as I was interviewing for software developer. I was supposed to talk about what kind of tool I’d build. I found it kind of eye opening but I’m still not sure what the right lesson to learn was…

I think the correct answer would be to ask "why are they doing that and not using Google Sheets?".

There are a lot of good reasons for not using Google Sheets. Maybe the spreadsheet is using features that Google Sheet doesn't support, maybe one of the parties is in China, where Google services are blocked, maybe it is against company policy to use Google Docs, maybe they have limited connectivity.

It is good to acknowledge the obvious, off the shelf solutions, but if you are given a job, that's either because the customer did their homework and found out that no, it is indeed not appropriate, or, for some reason, they have money burning their pockets and they want a custom solution, just because. In both cases that's how you are getting paid. So, I don't consider "use Google Sheets, you idiot" to be an appropriate answer. Understand the customer specific needs, that's your job, even more so in the age of AI.

And maybe the interviewer will be honest and say "just assume you can't, this is just an exercise in software architecture".

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#319

Post by blobbers »

Haha. This title: Nobody Gets Promoted for Simplicity

This was the model at my last job. The "director" of software had strong opinions about the most random topics and talked about them like they would be revolutionary. His team was so far from the product teams they would just build random crap that was unhelpful but technically demo'ed well. Never put into practice. Promoted for 4 years, then fired.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#320

Post by 1024core »

FAANGs are notorious for promoting complexity, and the results are there for all to see.

One thing engineers can do to fight this, and I think it's mentioned in the article, is to write extensive documentation. Bosses in these companies are too lazy to dig into solutions and figure out for themselves; so they resort to proxies like the number of lines of code, number of pages in the design doc, etc.

Unfortunately, some of us who aim for simplicity are also averse to writing long docs; but with the advent of LLMs, there is some relief in sight.

My career has suffered a lot in terms of promos, etc. because I hate complexity.

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