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Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

gwern.net

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Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others said, Australia. Like Terence I also had "out of band" classes and free time to read advance material in both primary and high school. During that period Australia also had good federal and state programs for clustering advanced kids on yearly subsidised specialist camps - optional and free if parents couldn't afford to chip in. I bumped into him at the same time Paul Erdős was doing the rounds and hanging…

Do you have any idea how one would go about understanding the current status quo in terms of advancing kids? E.g. which countries do it etc.

If the goal is to map the global status quo on education, the answer is to go country by country and ideally visit as many as possible.

This was the path mayself and others followed when we wanted to map the current state of global mineral and resource extraction. ie Grind.

Particularly during the Cold War years emphasis was placed by major powers on intellectual and physical achievements, countries dedicated resources to hothousing swimmers, runners, chess players, musicians, etc.

If your specific interest is "gifted" children, TT wrote this some years past: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/advice-on-gifte...

I'd add to that a number of peer children with various gifts I grew up with never wanted to (for example) play the violin ever again. Push too hard and you can easily blow it.

More generally, advancing children en masse is likely still "done best" by Finland, a country considered by many to have the best general education system. All the teachers are university educated in + "education" (the act of educating) and they adopt a policy of stability, resourcing, active teaching (teacher lectures class) and near equal time for student activity (half the class time spent by students doing stuff for themselves related to topic).

Policy wise, it's not all about the super brains - the trades are hard and demand skills, it's good to have parallel streams; applied STEM for some, apprentiships for others, AND (in my opinion at least) a mixing of the two - giant autonomous 240 tonne trucks don't build themselves, someone has to lathe out massive hydraulic cylinders and control rods and levers that others have to control via funky math stuff.

Here in W.Australia the capital city Perth has a number of specialist high schools - Performing Arts ones that feed into WAAPA (post high school level performance), an aviation focused high school my son attended where each intake year builds their own aircraft to fly ( https://www.kentstreetshs.wa.edu.au/aviation ), etc.

These are state schools (free) that are general schools (like all the others) with additional Specialist Programs.

There are some 190+ odd countries about the globe, it would take some time to table out the education programmes in each.

Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A supermodel who is gifted with the gift of looks, beauty etc is also in the same category of “natural” talent but sure doesn’t get the same celebration as a prodigy in maths or science We living on the same planet? Pretty sure the supermodel gets infinitely more attention and certainly makes orders of magnitudes more money than some math prodigy, at least on mine.

I think Terrence Tao makes at least 600k at UCLA. Not too bad if you ask me.

he would make 10 times more if he's a supermodel of same caliber.

Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still meritocratic even with dramatic genetic differences between individuals. A peer comment mentioned an anecdote of Terence nearly failing his orals because he ended spending all of his time playing Civ instead of studying anything. It's basically the Gattaca story. Somebody can have the most brilliant mind in the world, but without actually applying it, they're not going to do great in life. If you give a pe…

I seriously doubt a person with average intellect can become a world class mathematician, let alone a decent one. Just on grid. I have seen people in college that were tremendously hard working fail math classes and just not understand it. At some point saying they should just try harder is cruel.

The logic in my claim is that the overwhelming majority of people will reach nowhere even remotely near to their genetic potential in literally anything. You can see this in any endeavor where performance can be objectively measured - chess is the obvious one. A 2000 rated player is not much more than a strong amateur, but that already leaves one in like the 90th+ percentile for a game that millions of people work and study at.

It's not like the other 90% of people lack the intelligence or whatever else to be much stronger than they are, but it requires extensive dedication, work, and suffering that many just uninterested in tolerating for the sake of improving at a single domain. I think your example largely proves the point. Anybody of average intelligence can obviously excel at undergraduate math if they're willing to dedicate themselves to it, but many people aren't. If somebody was failing at math it's probably because they were just treating it like you might e.g. literature, and trying to do cram sessions relatively shortly before each exam, whereas by the time somebody gets to stuff like diff eq math starts turning more into a puzzle game that requires developing things on a subconscious/intuitive level.

Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#314
post #303
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gwern on that smpy site what does the O-like character next to certainty: log mean? I'm viewing on chrome from an Android device. I'm trying to figure out what your certainty on smpy is. Also thank you for your site. I read your n back analysis some years ago and found it to be very interesting.

The SMPY page is essentially an annotated bibliography: fulltext + abstract + commentary. Since the papers are of highly varied quality, it doesn't much make sense to try to put any particular confidence on it; I am convinced of some things, but definitely not others - particularly the early papers when they had little data and were still experimenting a lot. If I had an essay making a specific claim about SMPY then…

Thank you! I've read much of the page now and it is fascinating.

Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously doubt a person with average intellect can become a world class mathematician, let alone a decent one. Just on grid. I have seen people in college that were tremendously hard working fail math classes and just not understand it. At some point saying they should just try harder is cruel.

The logic in my claim is that the overwhelming majority of people will reach nowhere even remotely near to their genetic potential in literally anything. You can see this in any endeavor where performance can be objectively measured - chess is the obvious one. A 2000 rated player is not much more than a strong amateur, but that already leaves one in like the 90th+ percentile for a game that millions of people work an…

This was not undergraduate math in my case, but I still don't agree.

I don't think anyone of average intelligence can excel at undergraduate math. It of course depends on the degree and the school. Can anyone with average intelligence excel at an undergraduate math course in community college for their psychology degree? Probably yes. But an undergraduate math course at oxford as part of a maths degree? Not for sure not.

I think you are severely underestimating how much intelligence factors in how fast and even what at all you can learn. Take the opposite end of the spectrum. The US army rejects candidates with an IQ of ~85 or lower. Because they have found this group cannot contribute meaningfully. Let that sink in. Just a drop of 15 IQ points means the US army has decided you cannot be effectively taught anything to a minimum degree of competence. Now consider that the average IQ of a mathematician is 130 (https://realiqtest.webflow.io/posts/iq-by-occupation-a-compr...).

Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#316
post #227

I like that test where some of the questions are wrong and wonder whether we should have that kind of thing in maths textbooks. I think people need to be trained to be more confident in what they know, and if we gave them that kind of thing we could maybe train them to become so.

"incomplete information" is a standard concept in word problem curriculum. But usually it's explicitly an option in the test, as a fairness to the student. Making mistakes in lecture is a standard technique used by good teachers, to promote active listening and critical thinking.

Yes, but in Swedish school maths books there are lists of problems, and these are always correct. You don't find a "this problem is nonsense, and here's way" in the list of solutions.

I think this kind of thing is extremely unusual.

Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#317

I like that test where some of the questions are wrong and wonder whether we should have that kind of thing in maths textbooks. I think people need to be trained to be more confident in what they know, and if we gave them that kind of thing we could maybe train them to become so.

Actually - do they do this in LLM benchmarks? As a measure of overconfidence/confabulation? Seems immediately applicable.

I don't think it's a common thing in any public LLM benchmarks or in any standard QA datasets. Maybe in internal stuff at AI firms.

Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#318
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"incomplete information" is a standard concept in word problem curriculum. But usually it's explicitly an option in the test, as a fairness to the student. Making mistakes in lecture is a standard technique used by good teachers, to promote active listening and critical thinking.

Yes, but in Swedish school maths books there are lists of problems, and these are always correct. You don't find a "this problem is nonsense, and here's way" in the list of solutions. I think this kind of thing is extremely unusual.

I don't know about Sweden specifically, but I'm pretty sure that many word-problems-heavy education systems do also demonstrate ill-posed problems and expect pupils to recognize them. Of course there is generally a warning that some of the problems you get may be ill-posed, and what to say in that case: it's not a complete surprise.

Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic in my claim is that the overwhelming majority of people will reach nowhere even remotely near to their genetic potential in literally anything. You can see this in any endeavor where performance can be objectively measured - chess is the obvious one. A 2000 rated player is not much more than a strong amateur, but that already leaves one in like the 90th+ percentile for a game that millions of people work an…

This was not undergraduate math in my case, but I still don't agree. I don't think anyone of average intelligence can excel at undergraduate math. It of course depends on the degree and the school. Can anyone with average intelligence excel at an undergraduate math course in community college for their psychology degree? Probably yes. But an undergraduate math course at oxford as part of a maths degree? Not for sure…

I'm speaking of math majors, or fields with a heavy math requirement, of course. Diff eq is not required anywhere, as far as I know at least, for non-technical majors. As for the army, I wouldn't just hand-wave away soldiering. You're talking about people being put in high pressure situations with ever-shifting dynamics, potentially against a human adversary, where lives are at stake. And they think everybody except the bottom ~32% of society is fit for this task.

I'd certainly expect an average person who dedicates his life to mathematics to end up with a higher than average IQ largely because while IQ is a useful measure, it's not an independent g factor. Studying mathematics is going to absolutely help train your brain in many areas that are also beneficial for performance in IQ exams. So for instance, some studies have shown that each additional year of education, relative to a fixed base, can causally contribute 1-5 additional IQ points. [1] So our person in question would almost certainly expect to see a significant and measurable IQ increase.

And FWIW I'm rather on the opposite extreme of those who argue for some sort of tabula rasa. I fully acknowledge dramatic innate differences between individuals, but I'm largely arguing that such differences only become major factors for people who approach their genetic potential in something, which most people will never get even remotely near, simply because the amount of dedication and sacrifice it takes is something that very few people are willing to accept.

[1] - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6088505

Re: Terence Tao, at 8 years old (1984) [pdf]

#320

Since the discussion here focuses mostly on child prodigies in general, I'd note that there are many studies showing that the usual outcomes for gifted kids are not all that great. I think the issue is that it's just harder to fit in. I remember being way ahead in some classes in middle school, and I actually ending up drawing the ire of some teachers when I had answers to every question (let alone corrected them). I…

I had a child prodigy friend growing up. He had graduated college before most of us were in highschool. Long story short, he turned to a life of crime, stole millions of dollars from high tech companies and ended up killing himself in a plane crash. It's hard out there for the super smart.
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