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Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

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Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value proposition of hydrogen is energy density. Batteries have low energy per unit of volume and awful energy density by unit of mass. You will never, ever, fly across the Pacific on a battery powered aircraft. Transoceanic shipping is also not feasible with batteries (current and proposed battery powered shopping lanes are short hops of a couple hundred kilometers or less).

The Toyota Mirai is a passenger vehicle, not an airplane nor a transatlantic container ship.

Sure, but if the economics of hydrogen motors worked out for planes and shipping, the argument is that it would also economically work out for cars.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to Google what is green hydrogen. It is hydrogen produced by electrolysis. If you've already got the electricity for electrolysis, would it not be more efficient and mechanically simpler to store it in a battery and power an electric motor?

Before the introduction of 800V charging architectures, long charge-time for EVs was a big con. Hydrogen Cell vehicles were supposed to be EVs with drastically faster fill-up times. The tradeoff was more complex delivery infrastructure.

Yet, most of the world has had 3 phase (400V phase to phase) for ages. At the wall.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#313
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water gets split into oxygen and hydrogen using energy. The hydrogen then gets burned to release usable energy, which creates water. At least as far as I remember from chemistry class ages ago.

There's some truth to what the gp said. Some hydrogen will escape, enter the upper atmosphere, and be blown away by the solar wind and thus be permanently lost.

I assume that this has been happening to all gases in the atmosphere for aeons, and thus, while technically correct, it is completely negligible for the relevant time scale.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value proposition of hydrogen is energy density. Batteries have low energy per unit of volume and awful energy density by unit of mass. You will never, ever, fly across the Pacific on a battery powered aircraft. Transoceanic shipping is also not feasible with batteries (current and proposed battery powered shopping lanes are short hops of a couple hundred kilometers or less).

The Toyota Mirai is a passenger vehicle, not an airplane nor a transatlantic container ship.

True, but it is a good first step. Start small, increment to larger solutions.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And political will. The Antipodes have such a problem with successful people we even invented a term for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome On the subject of free markets, Australia excels. We even let foreign entities extract and sell our LNG and pay no royalties and no tax. https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/zero-royalties-charge... Doesn’t get any freer than that!

Spain stripped S. America of its gold and silver, and neither Spain nor S. America benefited from it.

Doesn’t South America collectively produce more gold in one year than the Spanish usurped from them in their entire conquest period?

Gold production by country:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_mineral_...

In only the first half-century or so of the Spanish conquest of the Americas, over 100 tons of gold were extracted from the continent. - https://www.worldhistory.org/article/2045/the-gold-of-the-co...

Context is for kings though. In the context of what occurred when it occurred, you’re right.

For a while there, Australia was known as ‘the lucky country’ because despite the folly of politicians, and general fallibility of humans, we had wealth for toil.

Now we just give it away.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#316
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before the introduction of 800V charging architectures, long charge-time for EVs was a big con. Hydrogen Cell vehicles were supposed to be EVs with drastically faster fill-up times. The tradeoff was more complex delivery infrastructure.

Yet, most of the world has had 3 phase (400V phase to phase) for ages. At the wall.

I don't know why you prefixed with "Yet" when I clearly spelt out the trade-offs and contrasts in distribution between H2 and electricity.

The Mirai goes from empty to full in 5 minutes or less - which compares very well with fossil-fuel burners. Now that every OEM has abandoned battery-swapping, how fast can EV batteries be safely charged with the said 3 phases? How long were the charging time when the Mirai was debuted? That was the trade-off Toyota was hoping to fall on the good side of, nevermind the Japanese government bet on hydrogen and whatever incentives are available for Toyota.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t. I’m willing to give it a go. I’ve got the excess solar from the rooftop solar panels, the electrical and electronic knowledge, and the gas fitter and metal fabrication experience. I have an oil free air compressor, and anyone can by a helium based cryo-cooler. I have an account with an industrial gas supplier. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous. If Nile Red hasn’t blown his lab up by the time I publish…

Round trip efficiency of hydrogen is at best 50% and at worse half that. You have the horrendous efficiency of electrolysis and then the equally bad efficiency in the fuel cell. Efficiency pumping your excess solar into the EV itself is more like 80-85%, most of which is loss in the electronics, not the battery - those typically have a coulombic efficiency of over 95%. Hydrogen a boondoggle. It's not nearly as stupid…

> Round trip efficiency of hydrogen is at best 50%

In fact, even this level of efficiency may be sufficient. Solar panels are so cheap that if we had affordable, long-term energy storage options, even with such efficiency, we would have completely abandoned fossil fuels. But, unfortunately, storing hydrogen is difficult and dangerous. It is not like natural gas.

> It's not nearly as stupid as making ethanol from corn (which is an energy-negative process) but it's close.

Ethanol is produced from corn not for energy purposes, but for food security. It's like a placeholder for real corn so that if there's a crop failure for a couple of years, the low-iq idiots who think it's stupid to make ethanol from corn don't starve to death.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#318
post #266
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no point. EVs go 50% further on the same amount of energy, are easier to charge and are, of course, cheaper.

EVs take forever to charge, rendering long trips unrealistic. They are not cheaper long term, for they rely upon thousands of pounds of heavy batteries. If they go further now, that is not a given down the road. Were you to employ this logic when electric cars first came out, there wouldn't be a single one on the road. It's only through trillions of research dollars, that current battery tech is where it is. But sure…

> EVs take forever to charge, rendering long trips unrealistic.

You'll find EVs that will go 700km+ with just one, 15min stop, as they charge at over 350kW in this day and age:

https://ev-database.org/#group=vehicle-group&av-1=1&rs-pr=10...

You'd want to make that 15min stop at least once on such a trip. Or fly instead.

> It's only through trillions of research dollars, that current battery tech is where it is.

Problem is that while batteries only needed scale and improvements in manufacturing processes to become cheaper, there's no such path with hydrogen.

The tank and the fuel cell are inherently expensive. The fueling station costs literally 10x that of a fast charger and in this day and age doesn't even charge faster as while the first customer will be done in less than 15min, the next needs to wait for the system to repressurize and that takes time. Also it goes kaboom if it fails, which is something we know, because it already happened. The fuel itself cannot be cheaper than electricity unless you want to make it from natural gas, in which case you better just use that instead.

> (batteries are terrible, environmentally)

The sheer energy that's wasted by a hydrogen car vs EV over its life cycle is enough to produce and safely dispose of a battery.

And this is what it really boils down to: hydrogen is not energetically efficient, therefore you can't make it cheaper unless you use fossil fuels. We already have fossil fuel cars.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#319

I don't think hydrogen will ever be a thing for personal cars. Apart from the abysmal "well to wheel" efficiency it's also just such a hassle to create a fuel network for it. Gasoline is bad enough but a gas that will just leak away whatever you do seems like a stretch. It is just so much simpler with electricity. Pretty much every gas station already has it. No driving it around with trucks. Just maybe once install…

And more to the point, if you want to use synthetic fuels, why on earth would you pick hydrogen? Yes, it burns to clean water, but if the carbon feedstock is renewable, synthetic hydrocarbons are renewable too. The efficiency loss from doing the additional steps to build hydrocarbons is not large compared to the efficiency losses of using hydrogen, and storage can be so much easier with something denser.

I'd assume because it is complicated. Capturing enough carbon, splitting it, generating enough H2, combining it with the carbon to make long enough chains. That all sounds complicated and expensive and probably needs even more surplus green power that we don't have. It also doesn't solve the problem of local pollution when burning carbon based fuels.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There seems to be some kind of psychosis around it being the next oil There's a very well financed propaganda campaign.

Same with nuclear. The most expensive form of electricity generation there is. No grid operator wants to touch it, but the nuclear industry has been very busy lobbying congress and both the current and last administration.

Nuclear is incredibly energy dense, can be stockpiled for a long time and is extremely safe. Yes its expensive but its one those industries any serious nation needs to subsidise for the energy security it offers and the countless high skill jobs it fosters.
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