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Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

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Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#311

Post by 0xffff2 »

lkbm wrote: post #300
sandworm101 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 25mph school zone? That seems fast. 15mph would be more the norm, which is in line with the 17mph the car believed itself to be traveling. FYI, unless you are a commerical truck, a cop, or a racer, your speedometer will read slightly fast, sometimes as much as 5 to 10%. This is normal practice for cars as it limits manufacturer liability. You can check this using independant gps, ie not an in-dash unit. (Just imagi…

I mostly see 25 mph for school zones, though I'm in NC. Checking California, it sounds like 25 is standard there as well.[0] Some will drop to 15, but 25 is the norm as far as I can find. [0] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/california-driver-han...

I've lived all over California and I agree that 25mph is the norm here.

Edit: However, elsewhere in the thread someone linked this Streetview image that shoes that this particular school zone is 15mph: https://maps.app.goo.gl/7PcB2zskuKyYB56W8?g_st=ac

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#312

Post by themafia »

jobs_throwaway wrote: post #292
themafia wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's likely that a fully-attentive human driver would have done worse. > a huge portion of human drivers What are you basing any of these blind assertions off of? They are not at all born out by the massive amounts of data we have surrounding driving in the US. Of course Waymo is going to sell you a self-serving line but here on Hacker News you should absolutely challenge that. In particular because it's very far o…

If you have contradicting data I'd be glad to see it >It's likely that a fully-attentive human driver would have done worse. Is based off the source I gave in my comment, the peer-reviewed model > a huge portion of human drivers Is based on my experience and bits of data like 30% of fatal accidents involving alcohol Like I said, if you have better data I'm glad to see it

> based on my experience

The data completely disagrees with you.

> Like I said, if you have better data I'm glad to see it

We all have better data. It's been here the entire time:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/research-data/fatality-analysis-report...

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#313

Post by bhewes »

The a human would do it better people are hilarious. Given how many times I have been hit by human drives on my bike and watched others get creamed by a cars. One time in Boulder at a flashing cross walk a person ran right through it and the biker they creamed got stuck in the roof rack.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#314

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #247
jsrozner wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the waymo was speeding! All the dumbasses on here defending waymo when it was going 17 > 15. Oh also, that video says "kid ran out from a double parked suv". Can you imagine being dumb enough to drive over the speed limit around a double parked SUV in a school zone?

> Can you imagine being dumb enough to drive over the speed limit around a double parked SUV in a school zone? Can you imagine being dumb enough to think that exceeding a one size fits all number on a sign by As if 2mph would have fundamentally changed this. Pfft. A double parked car, in an area with chock full street parking (hence the double park) and "something" that's a magnet for pedestrians, and probably a bunc…

> As if 2mph would have fundamentally changed this. Pfft.

According to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46812226 1mph slower might have entirely avoided contact in this particular case.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#315

Post by [deleted] »

dlg wrote: post #153

I was just dropping my kids off at their elementary school in Santa Monica, but not at Grant Elementary where this happened. While it's third-hand, word on the local parent chat is that the parent dropped their kid off on the opposite side of the street from Grant. Even though there was a crossing guard, the kid ran behind a car an ran right out in to the street. If those rumors are correct, I'll say the kid's/family…

[deleted]

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#316

Post by mlyle »

lkbm wrote: post #310
mlyle wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many human drivers do you think would pass the bar you're setting? How many humans drivers would pass it, and what proportion of the time? Even the best drivers do not constantly maintain peak vigilance, because they are human. > IMO, the bar should be that the technology is a significant improvement over the average performance of human drivers (which I don't think is that hard), not necessarily perfect. In pr…

> In practice, this isn't reasonable, because "hey we're slightly better than a population that includes the drunks, the inattentive, and the infirm" is not going to win public trust. Sadly, you're right, but as rational people, we can acknowledge that it should . I care about reducing injuries and deaths, and the %tile of human performance needed for that is probably something like 30%ile. It's definitely well below…

The counterpoint, though:

> > And, of course, a system that is barely better than average humans might worsen safety, if it ends up replacing driving by those who would normally drive especially safe.

It's only if you get the habitually drunk (a group that is overall impoverished), the very old, etc, to ride Waymo that you reap this benefit. And they're probably not early adopters.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#317

Post by red75prime »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #68
direwolf20 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As every company should, when they have a success. Are they also as transparent about their failures?

Well, as a comparison, we know that Tesla has failed to report to NHTSA any collisions that didn't deploy the airbag.

Tesla report ids from SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv with no or unknown airbag deployment status: 13781-13330, 13781-13319, 13781-13299, 13781-13208, 13781-8843, 13781-13149, 13781-13103, 13781-13070, 13781-13052... and more

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#318

Post by cardiffspaceman »

sandworm101 wrote: post #260
2b3o4o wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article the car was traveling at 17 miles an hour before it began braking. Presumably this was in a 25 mph school zone, so it seems the Waymo was already doing exactly what you describe - slowing down preemptively.

A 25mph school zone? That seems fast. 15mph would be more the norm, which is in line with the 17mph the car believed itself to be traveling. FYI, unless you are a commerical truck, a cop, or a racer, your speedometer will read slightly fast, sometimes as much as 5 to 10%. This is normal practice for cars as it limits manufacturer liability. You can check this using independant gps, ie not an in-dash unit. (Just imagi…

In Encinitas, California, that sign would have no more than 20 MPH. In adjacent Carlsbad, I believe 25 is normal.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#319

Post by drewda »

jobs_throwaway wrote: post #8
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #2

From the Waymo blog... > the pedestrian suddenly entered the roadway from behind a tall SUV, moving directly into our vehicle's path. Our technology immediately detected the individual as soon as they began to emerge from behind the stopped vehicle. The Waymo Driver braked hard, reducing speed from approximately 17 mph to under 6 mph before contact was made. > Following contact, the pedestrian stood up immediately, w…

Yup. And to add > Waymo said in its blog post that its “peer-reviewed model” shows a “fully attentive human driver in this same situation would have made contact with the pedestrian at approximately 14 mph.” It's likely that a fully-attentive human driver would have done worse. With a distracted driver (a huge portion of human drivers) it could've been catastrophic.

Waymo is intentionally leaving out the following details:

- Their "peer-reviewed model" compares Waymo vehicles against only "Level 0" vehicles. However even my decade-old vehicle is considered "Level 1" because it has an automated emergency braking system. No doubt my Subaru's camera-based EBS performs worse than Waymo's, still it's not being included in their "peer-reviewed model." That comparison is intentionally comparing Waymo performance against the oldest vehicles on the road -- not the majority of cars sold currently.

- This incident happened during school dropoff. There was a double-parked SUV that occluded the view of the student. This crash was the fault of that double-parked driver. But why was the uncrewed Waymo driving at 17 mph to begin with? Do they not have enough situational awareness to slow the f*ck down around dropoff time immediately near an elementary school?

Automotive sensor/control packages are very useful and will be even more useful over time -- but Waymo is intentionally making their current offering look comparatively better than it actually is.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#320

Post by cardiffspaceman »

throwway120385 wrote: post #262
WheatMillington wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be implying that there are no circumstances in which a vehicle can hit a pedestrian and the driver not be at fault... which is absurd.

No it's not. The same principle applies to rules of right of way on the water. Technically the 32 foot sailboat has right of way over a triple-E because the triple-E uses mechanical propulsion. You have a responsibility to be cautious in heavy equipment no matter what the signage on the road says, and that includes keeping a speed at which you can stop safely if a person suddenly steps onto the road in situations whe…

As an aside, because it would not be germane to automotive safety…

In the Coast Guard Auxiliary “Sailing and Seamanship” class that I attended, targeting would-be sailboat skippers, we were told the USS Ranger nuclear-powered aircraft carrier had the right-of-way.

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