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Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

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Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#311
post #270
post #10

Can I just add: In addition to this, if you struggle with anxiety or have some sort of ADHD, then try cutting out caffeine entirely . Not just switching to "decaf" (which isn't), but cutting out tea and coffee, and switching to an alternative like Barleycup. Doing this has had a massive positive effect for me, and combined with decent nutrition and daily exercise, has been wonderful.

Tea, especially green tea, doesn’t have the same caffeine bioavailability as coffee – otherwise people would abuse it just as much as coffee. I’m quite sensitive to caffeine, yet I can drink green tea all day without noticing much effect, while even a light coffee or a caffeine pill is clearly noticeable. I can also drink tea before going to sleep without any problems.

> Tea, especially green tea, doesn’t have the same caffeine bioavailability as coffee – otherwise people would abuse it just as much as coffee

You can absolutely get high doses of caffeine from tea if you really want to. It comes down to the type of tea, how much is used, and how strong it’s brewed.

There is nothing special about tea that breaks the rules of caffeine. It comes down to the content of the leaves, quantity, and extraction into water.

> while even a light coffee or a caffeine pill is clearly noticeable

Caffeine pills generally have really high dosages, FYI. Even light coffee drinkers can be caught off guard by how much caffeine is in a typical off the shelf caffeine pill.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#312

With depression it is important to find the cause of it. You might be depressed because you life objectively sucks. Then you symptoms are good and healthy and a signal to make changes in your circumstances. You might actually have a good life but still feel depressed because there is a chemical imbalance in your brain. (Very simplified). That is when drugs come in. It might be just a seasonal thing and you need to go…

This stuff is complex. There are no magic potions or hacks that work for everyone. No amount of positive thinking can fix physiological issues that you have because of some underlying condition. But it's quite possible to create new issues as a side effect of being depressed, stressed, chronically exhausted, etc. So, working on those issues is probably smart.

And each of those things can be caused by physiological issues as well. You might feel stressed because you don't sleep well. You might sleep poorly because you suffer from e.g. sleep Apnea. Which in turn might be because of a mix of physiological and other reasons (diet, weight, alcohol abuse, etc.).

Or you might be working too hard, which makes you stressed and causes you to lose a lot of sleep. Different causes that have similar results. Including long term physiological results. Your brain can actually get damaged if you chronically abuse it or neglect it. Many "between the ears" type problems are actually physiological.

Root causing your issues enables you to deal with them properly instead of fighting the symptoms.

Anyway, I take vitamin D and a few other things. Getting yourself checked out regularly once you hit middle age is a good idea. There's a lot of stuff that is long term lethal that a checkup can detect early. And some of it is fixable. I have the usual cardio vascular challenges that many people struggle with because of a combination of genetics, age, and life style. And indeed a vitamin D deficit.

I was also recommended to consume more omega-3 as well. Eat salmon. Work some flax/chia seeds in your breakfast. I put flax seeds in my yogurt and use it as a thickener in sauces as well. You have to grind it to dust for it to get absorbed properly. Dirt cheap and it doesn't mess with flavor/texture too much. I keep a jar of ground flax seeds in my fridge. Takes 2 minutes to top it up every 1-2 weeks or so with some freshly ground seeds.

But I'm also aware that me being a stressed startup founder has health consequences that a few pills and suplements won't fix for me. I need to actively make sure I get my rest and sleep. I deal a lot better with stressful situations when I'm well rested. And I seem to be better at avoiding getting in to those as well. And I feel happier. Sometimes the best thing I can do for my company is having a proper weekend or going to bed early enough that I can get my 8 hours of sleep. You can survive on 4 hours (been there done that), for a while. But most people are not at their peak performance if they do that. And it's not good for you to work yourself to exhaustion all the time.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no experience about antidepressants myself so please excuse my stupid question. When I hear people say "it killed my libido" I always think about the fact that hyper-sexuality can be a trauma response, and if your body is healing the hyper-sexuality is most likely also reduced. It's like when you have a disease and then read the side effects of a medication and notice that a lot of the side effects are basical…

Stupid question - why do you keep suggesting that having a libido equals hypersexuality? Is this your trauma speaking, or do you automatically associate any sexual needs with a pathology? You've done it twice in this thread alone.

[flagged]

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#314
post #10

Can I just add: In addition to this, if you struggle with anxiety or have some sort of ADHD, then try cutting out caffeine entirely . Not just switching to "decaf" (which isn't), but cutting out tea and coffee, and switching to an alternative like Barleycup. Doing this has had a massive positive effect for me, and combined with decent nutrition and daily exercise, has been wonderful.

Downside with going completely off caffeine is you get so tired and unfocused and it lasts for ages. I tried doing this for almost a full year, and while the improved sleep and generally improved mood was fantastic, and even toward the end it was so much harder to get any focused work done.

I think my average level of useful focus is just simply higher with caffeine. I was off it for three years, which is well beyond the time it would take to lose any tolerance, but never really reverted back to the same level of focus that I get with caffeine.

I'm not sure my overall focus over time is higher with caffeine, but it does allow me to nudge more of it into the useful part of my day. However I'm a fast metaboliser of caffeine, and it doesn't impact my sleep at all, so could be that there's a genetic component to one's experience here.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide a link to the newspaper article at least while whining about the downvotes?

I would like to, but I cannot, since it is a region-local newspaper that comes as actual paper, that only has a paid online offer, to which I have no access, nor could I post a link to that. If I went through recent paper form newspaper, I could get a photo of the text in German, but then I would (A) need to spend that time, and (B) need a place to upload pictures, without having to make an account, and only then get…

Understandable, but you wrote all of that and you still haven't even named the newspaper.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#316

Be careful - many studies in the Vitamin D meta-analysis *enrolled patients already taking antidepressants.* [1] Reporting effect sizes without specifying "on which population?" is misleading. (As an aside, Cohen would be the person not to tell you to assign qualitative values to effect sizes. They are as arbitrary as any other threshold used by working statisticians.) [1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psyc…

Hi, author of the blog post here! Thanks for bringing this up -- it wasn't my intention to say one should replace antidepressants with vitamins (the conclusion even says "(Don't quit your existing antidepressants if they're net-positive for you!)", but you're right that the intro may give that impression. I'll edit the intro to say you can stack, not substitute, regular antidepressants.

> many studies in the Vitamin D meta-analysis enrolled patients already taking antidepressants.

Yes, and that's even more encouraging, that there's still effects of Vitamin D on major depression even if already on antidepressants! This suggests we can "stack" the interventions.

Table 1 of the meta-analysis ( https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11650176/ ) shows the raw sub-group analysis. There were 9 studies on patients using antidepressants, 13 on patients who weren't, the rest were Mixed or Not Reported (...how do 6 studies just not report that?) Anyway,

Effect size of Vit D for people on antidepressants: −0.54 (−0.85, −0.23)

Effect size of Vit D for people NOT on antidepressants: −0.28 (−0.40, −0.16)

Both negative. Weirdly, the effect of Vit D seems to be a bit stronger for people on antidepressants, but the difference isn't statistically significant at the p(As for why those effect sizes, -0.54 & -0.28, are lower than what I (and that meta-analysis itself) report, -1.82, that's because the majority of RCTs for any group used far less than 5000 IU. Table 2 in that paper shows the effect (with 95% CI) for various dosages.)

I'll lightly edit my blog post to emphasize stack them, don't substitute. Thanks again for your comment!

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#317
post #161

Because it's common to hate on antidepressants, I've always personally had a bias against them. For the past 15-20 years, november thru february are basically a writeoff due for me due to seasonal affective disorder. Cold showers, exercise, no alcohol, strict sleeping rituals. Vitamin d. I can still sleep 11 hours and feel like reheated cat shit. Enter citalopram. "It will take up to six weeks to dial in" they said.…

The hate on antidepressants is not because they're not effective, but rather that they're abused by psychiatrists. Ideally, a professional will prescribe them as a necessary helper to becoming (more) mentally healthy whilst tackling the root cause. Most of the time however, it's more of a "here, take these indefinitely". It's like if we took sleeping pills every time we had trouble sleeping. Having said that, I just…

"It's like if we took sleeping pills every time we had trouble sleeping. Having said that, I just realised I have the impression that's exactly what people do in the USA?"

Not that my personal experience is actually a statistically significant sample, but I don't know anybody who takes sleeping pills. Or maybe I do, but they haven't told me. I've also never heard heavy sleeping pill use is one of the stereotypes about Americans. There are an estimated 342 million people in the United States, so impressions aren't always meaningful.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#318
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hate on antidepressants is not because they're not effective, but rather that they're abused by psychiatrists. Ideally, a professional will prescribe them as a necessary helper to becoming (more) mentally healthy whilst tackling the root cause. Most of the time however, it's more of a "here, take these indefinitely". It's like if we took sleeping pills every time we had trouble sleeping. Having said that, I just…

Agree. But sometimes there is no "root cause", the brain is still a mystery. If you had been depressed even when you knew there was nothing to worry about, you would see it differently, because then you deduce that the black cloud is produced within. Chemistry trumps psychology. Good enough chemistry enables cognitive treatments. But to fix the wrong chemistry you need chemistry.

> Chemistry trumps psychology

To nitpick: The mind is applied biochemistry. Psychology intervenes in the chemistry, like many other activities do. The goal of that is to solve the root cause so that your future levels will be maintained at the right level, instead of just forcing the level by sourcing the respective chemicals externally.

A good rule of thumb in biology and particular any kind of hormone production and balance is "use it or lose it" - if you start regularly receiving something externally, internal production will scale back and atrophy in response, in many cases permanently.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#319

The first thing I would do in case of depression is to make sure that the patient's energy levels are good and that mitochondria and other energy-related biochem phenomena work as expected. I know first-hand that low energy-levels and lacking energy production mechanically lead to depression. Also, look at how people (children also) experience the world and their relationships and their stresses when they are tired (…

Thank you for the comment. This is not in my area of expertise, so I hope you can clarify - how does one test that "mitochondria and other energy-related biochem phenomena work as expected"?

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#320
post #12
post #2

I found this to be the case. Tried Sertraline for a while, gave me headaches and made me feel sick. Then as part of a new gym plan, started taking Omega 3+VitD daily, and I just felt a sense of calm and peace after a few weeks. The massive uptick in exercise probably also helped. I also felt quite an extreme uptick because I was a vegan for 10 years, and found out I had basically zero Omega 3 in my blood. I suspect o…

Omega 3 comes from algae, which might be okay for some vegans.

Or fish oil
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