Live data from Hacker News

America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

abio.substack.com

311–320 of 322 posts

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#311
post #121

What a trash article. Why is the only photo, used to illustrate the point about narrow buildings, a photo of Manhattan instead of anything in Japan? When "our zoning laws" are enumerated, where are they talking about? Last time I checked there were no US federal rules on parking spaces. At least they acknowledge that multiple jurisdictions exist when talking about health codes. And as per usual when talking about Jap…

Thanks for the questions. I used a picture of Manhattan intentionally to show that it is possible in some parts of America. There's already tons of pictures of that type of building in Japan, where it originated. The zoning laws are at the local and city level, as are the parking spaces. Japan does have car dependent suburbs and rural areas, I'm not saying they don't. It's likely that Japan's $4 meals are concentrated in not-rural areas. I really doubt that Americans take pride in not having cheap lunch options if they want them.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#312
post #21

Missing from the article that also plays a role: * optimizations. Some of these restaurants don’t have a counter, or any customer facing staff. Select your meal and pay at a vending machine, get your ticket number, wait for your order to be called. * onsen/community center: it’s entirely feasible to own less things and have fewer sq/ft at home if you can go to your local rec center to shower/spa, watch tv, sit on the…

Thanks for the flag, the $4 places I went to didn't have this, so I wasn't aware. Those probably help decrease prices too.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#313
post #4

Why does the article start talking about Japan, then show some photo of Koreatown Manhattan?

Because the author quite literally does not care about accuracy. They handwave claims without any evidence at all.

I did that to show that America can have these types of buildings. Anyone can google to see the building in Japan, the building after all, originated in Japan. If it's inaccurate, I'd love to improve it. What part is inaccurate?

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#314

The article's diagnosis just doesn't seem connected to the facts. It has nothing to do with "restaurant tiers"; as the first link describes, the "healthy lunch bowls" are provided by the fast food chain Yoshinoya, which sells the same bowls in their US locations for $9.

This could easily be evidence of my point. The price point that made Yoshinoya viable and made it grow didn't work when it had to enter the US market. We outlawed what makes it viable. It became a $9 tier, not $4 tier.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#315

> don’t want to spend $11 at Chipotle Nice strawman. How about a $4.59 salad at Carls Jr or Wendy's, or an In-n-out cheeseburger for $4?

That's why I said healthy lunches e.g. stuff that is cheap because it's from raw ingredients like cooking rice in a rice cooker, rather than from mass-production at scale.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific on exactly what kind of cross-contamination standards make it impossible for a small eatery to exist? Do you have any specific rules in mind? Its been a while since I went through a food safety course, but I don't really recall any that would make it impossible for a small shop to achieve. I follow most of the rules I learned in my own kitchen at home. Stuff like don't use the same cutting bo…

It's not about cutting boards or temperature constraints. Yes, that applies at any scale. It's the stuff that legally mandates a minimum-size operation. Article talks about it: > Relatedly, our health code regulations also effectively outlaw people from opening restaurants in small spaces. Most jurisdictions require at least 3-4 different sinks—one for washing dishes (usually a large three-part sink), separate ones f…

I dunno I personally don't think its a huge ask to not use the same sink to clean the mop as the sink where they do the dishes but I guess some people don't mind mixing the usage.

I don't even mix my mop/cleaning sink (usually my tub at home) with my food prep, and my hand washing sink is separate from my kitchen sink when I'm actually in cooking mode. Even food trucks around me manage to meet these requirements.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you can. Briefadres. https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/gemeenten/vraag-en-...

In Amsterdam that is only for the homeless. The people living on the streets. Sounds like you just don’t know Dutch law and options at all tbh.

Nope. Since 2022 municipalities are required by law to issue it

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about cutting boards or temperature constraints. Yes, that applies at any scale. It's the stuff that legally mandates a minimum-size operation. Article talks about it: > Relatedly, our health code regulations also effectively outlaw people from opening restaurants in small spaces. Most jurisdictions require at least 3-4 different sinks—one for washing dishes (usually a large three-part sink), separate ones f…

I dunno I personally don't think its a huge ask to not use the same sink to clean the mop as the sink where they do the dishes but I guess some people don't mind mixing the usage. I don't even mix my mop/cleaning sink (usually my tub at home) with my food prep, and my hand washing sink is separate from my kitchen sink when I'm actually in cooking mode. Even food trucks around me manage to meet these requirements.

If we're using the most extreme examples to distract using visceral disgust instead of addressing the core point of one-size-fits-all regulations tend to kick out the bottom rung of the economic opportunity ladder, might I offer a small $5 solution? Buy a mop bucket.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renters can also enroll their kids in public schools. And in terms of mobility, renters might be stuck in a one- or two-year lease, far longer than it might take to sell a house. Maybe those transient homeowners are the ones who shouldn't get to vote...

I think you're kind of (completely) missing my point. Who signs two year leases at a motel? Obviously someone with a kid enrolled in school and locked into a long-term lease is not transient and has a comparable amount of skin in the game as a homeowner.

I must admit I somehow missed "at the motel" part of your post. I'm sorry!

(I still disagree with your broader point, since I don't think you can meaningfully draw a "has skin in the game" line.)

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno I personally don't think its a huge ask to not use the same sink to clean the mop as the sink where they do the dishes but I guess some people don't mind mixing the usage. I don't even mix my mop/cleaning sink (usually my tub at home) with my food prep, and my hand washing sink is separate from my kitchen sink when I'm actually in cooking mode. Even food trucks around me manage to meet these requirements.

If we're using the most extreme examples to distract using visceral disgust instead of addressing the core point of one-size-fits-all regulations tend to kick out the bottom rung of the economic opportunity ladder, might I offer a small $5 solution? Buy a mop bucket.

> If we're using the most extreme examples to distract using visceral disgust instead of addressing the core point

I am absolutely addressing a core point, that's a big part of what you previously quoted about being unable to meet health safety requirements. I didn't bring up that example, you and the previous author did. Its quite combative to act like I'm just pulling out some extreme example, when you're the one who provided the example as a regulation strangling businesses, and was the only example given.

You said cross contamination standards make such places impossible. I asked for concrete cross contamination examples that make it impossible, and the only one you've given me so far is sinks. So I'm sorry I'm only really talking sinks here, that's all I have to work with here. Other than the vagueness of the fact there's a lot of tiny jurisdictions, but that doesn't really matter given we're talking about hyper local hole-in-the-wall places. They really only care about whatever their specific local regulations are, which are usually pretty easy to go figure out.

>> Most jurisdictions require at least 3-4 different sinks—one for washing dishes (usually a large three-part sink), separate ones for washing hands, one for mopping, and often another for prepping food

Just having the mop bucket doesn't solve the problem. You take that mop bucket, and dump it where? Where do you go clean the bucket and the mop after you dump it? Where do you go to get water for the mop bucket?

What do these super tiny restaurants that are supposedly impossible to have in the US do to actually clean their dishes? What do they do to properly clean hands after handling unclean meats to prevent cross contamination? What do they do to clean the things they use to clean the facility? Do they have people with unclean hands covered in potential salmonella in the same sink they're doing dishes in? Or the sink where they cleaned the mop bucket an hour ago in? Which sink gets the axe?

You're telling me we need to get rid of these sink requirements (its the only thing you've concretely pointed to), but offering no suggestions other than "buy a mop bucket", which doesn't solve the problem at all.

You've also pointed to the idea that overregulation is what is killing small meatpackers, but once again give no concrete examples of what regulations you'd drop. I do agree there has been too much consolidation in the meatpacking industry and that smaller producers have been squeezed out. I agree this is probably a bad thing overall and we should do something to change this path we're on. I'm not 100% sure its safe to lay a large chunk of that blame on overregulation. If anything, some of the reduction of regulations have made the burden higher, such as reduction in USDA inspectors with the requirement that the meatpacker hire their own inspectors. The inspection still needs to be done, but now its the meatpacker that needs to train the inspector and pay the payroll for that person. So please, can you share some concrete examples of the regulations which should be removed for meatpacking as well?

Post reply on HN