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Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

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Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#311

Please let me put a data center in your back yard. Please just one more I promise the chat bots will help you email faster please bro AGI is just around the corner I promise it wont be an exponential multiplier on wealth concentration.

In quite a few places in the rural US (especially the mountain west), people are asking for that. Those companies usually build out a lot of needed infrastructue (power, water, even roads) as part of the deal, and it provides job opportunities (a ton up front, and some (though fewer than many people realize[1]) in perpetuity). [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46498947

50-100 jobs long term for a town, for noise and environmental effects in perpetuity, plus tax cuts as incentive from the locale to hire a handful of mechanical/handyman type jobs. Likely the skilled labor will be imported.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing jobs bring the entire supply chain of the manufacturer with them. The area where I live, Greenville, SC used to be the textile capital of the world and then became essentially destitute when the entire industry offshored. BMW and Michelin locating their US HQ here essentially rebuilt this entire corner of the state with jobs and associated supply chains. Now, Greenville is booming with a more diverse ec…

> Manufacturing jobs bring the entire supply chain of the manufacturer with them. Not really... Manufacturing today is a global process and the entire supply chain is usually spread around the world. One example for a cotton shirt ( https://apps.npr.org/tshirt/ ): the cotton is grown in Mississippi. It's then shipped to Indonesia to spin the cotton into yarn. The yarn is shipped to Bangladesh for rough cut and sewing…

For return to happen you need to have a creative economy, not an extractive economy.

Offshoring happened for the simple, dumb reason that it's cheaper and more profitable.

For all the rarara about "America", shareholder patriotism extends exactly as far as quarterly returns. If that means selling out ordinary US workers - do it. Give me the bag.

What offshoring revealed is that the US is not a culturally integrated country. The culture of the top 5% or so considers itself completely separate to the rest.

It's a political fault line that was always latent, was somewhat suppressed from the New Deal to Carter, and then came roaring back with Reagan.

Now it's operating at pathological, self-harming levels. The marrow of the country has been chewed out, and a few dysfunctional shell oligopolies, propped up by a bubble, are keeping the lie spinning.

There won't be any significant reshoring until there's a cultural change. Reshoring is just too expensive for the owner class to do more than tinker with it. Without a cultural change the owner class doesn't care enough to change that.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#313
post #37

lol "AI" is going to coincidentally collapse the same time this tyrannical presidency ends what drugs are you doing where you truly believe eliminating millions of jobs is going to bring "prosperity" it's going to "silo" wealth even further and make everything more unaffordable next generation won't even be able to own a car forget a home

AI isn't going to collapse. It's the real deal.

Sure, like the dot com bubble it will burst. But like the internet, AI is here to stay. The real bottleneck is electricity supply. CEO of Microsoft has even said, we have the chips but not the electricity to power them. The chips are sitting idle.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I don't like to blame corporations for outsourcing. The consumers outsource every time they select for cost.

It would be a virtuous cycle, though, right? If we had the right incentives for keeping manufacturing here, then sure, prices would be somewhat higher [0], but so would income for the very people who would be buying. [0] But how much higher, really? On a mass production line, what is the actual contribution of wages to the cost to produce?

That's not a virtuous cycle, that's inflation.

Assuming the local versus offshore good is a perfect substitute, that means that the value has not changed.

Paying more for the local good means your money is worth less, as it buys less value.

Your question on the production line doesn't account for all of the precursors also being local, plus the local energy rates, local taxes, local rents, and so on. Everything tends to be more expensive, otherwise the cost of managing offshore production wouldn't be worth the effort.

Total isolation only works when there's still room to grow by way of some underutilized resource- cheap labor, land, or something extractable from the environment like wood or minerals.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the factory you get both. With essentially zero chance to change the algorithm. When my father worked in the factory he found a way to manufacture the product faster and cheaper and just as safely, and rearranged the factory to do so. He was punished by management for altering the algorithm and also ostracized by fellow workers because they perceived it as reducing the demand for jobs.

That's the American dream story- always starts with dad getting yelled at for making things better and faster - the next sentence in the founding documents: So he went his own way and now we have NicoCloth Inc. which in the years since has become a global corporation.

Pretty sure they regulated that out of existence in the past several decades. Now best you can hope for is to be bought out by the competitor of the company you left sometime before the 50 employee mark.

(only partly joking, and that part is way smaller than I want it to be)

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#316

Ross Perot in 1992 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRr60nmDyu4 We have shipped millions of jobs overseas, and ... a strange situation, we have a process in Washington where after you serve for a while, you can cash in, become a foreign lobbyist. We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. You're paying 12, 13, 14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory South of the Border, pay a dollar an hour for yo…

Indeed, this was one of the first things I thought of too. I remember well the jokes about Perot being crazy, frequently used to dismiss his views. I'll never forget talking with an educated Perot voter (a friend of mine) at the time and actually being confronted with the real views, not a shallow strawman, and realizing I didn't have any good answers because I hadn't actually thought about it. That was a good matura…

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Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the American dream story- always starts with dad getting yelled at for making things better and faster - the next sentence in the founding documents: So he went his own way and now we have NicoCloth Inc. which in the years since has become a global corporation.

Pretty sure they regulated that out of existence in the past several decades. Now best you can hope for is to be bought out by the competitor of the company you left sometime before the 50 employee mark. (only partly joking, and that part is way smaller than I want it to be)

Well, I hope to think it's still possible.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#318
Traditionally, economy are typically divided into three sectors: Agriculture, industry, and services. Service industry contains everything from nursing to software development and sales. The problem with this division is that there is an extreme productivity gap within work in the service industry. A software developer's work can serve 100 million people at a time, when a nurse can only serve one customer at one specific time.

The reason why highly developed economies have become so service driven is because they have become sort of bimodal: The cost of labor is such that only jobs that are productive enough (profitability per hour) are done in these countries, and jobs that absolutely have to be done there to sustain the population. Jobs in the middle, everything that is not highly profitable or location-dependent, is offshored to lower-cost countries due to the cost of labor. This results in these developed countries having issues: Cost of living is high due to labor cost and there's high economic inequality due to wildly differing productivity.

The solution would be to bring these "mid-productivity" jobs back to developed countries. However, the main roadblocks still remain: The cost of labor is too expensive for most of these jobs to be competitive globally. However, I think there might be a way to do this in the near future: Advancements in robotics would mean a higher level of automation for industrial work, meaning more industrial jobs would become viable in high-cost countries. Each worker would be productive enough that the cost of labor is not critical anymore.

To make this happen, I believe it's important to ensure that the country is viable for this kind of manufacturing: Energy supply needs to be abundant and cheap, workforce needs to be educated, outside the "elite" students, and there needs to be low trade barriers. Low trade barriers are needed, because virtually all manufacturing is part of a global supply chain where parts cross many borders before the product is sold (and (high-value) products are sold globally). Additionally, the viability of automation will vary between different parts of the supply chain, and so you likely cannot automate everything.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of all the many industries out there, I don't understand why we keep glorifying and romanticizing manufacturing and trying to "bring it back." I've also worked a few of these jobs and you're right: THEY SUCK. Depending on what you are manufacturing, it can be boring, stressful, stinky, physically taxing, or dangerous. And most of them, even the highly skilled ones, don't pay well. For the sake of our own society,…

Because there are 300M people in the US and not all of them can have your cushy SSE role. See all the homeless people - it's because we're selling them out.

Maybe not literally all but certainly most. We hardly have any farmers or factory workers compared to what we had at one point. They've mostly moved onto cushy office jobs.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone paying for a family on a marketplace bronze plan, that’s a bargain! I think our premiums will exceed $20K this year. With all of the medical group consolidation, all of the wait time woes our Canadian friends always complained about are the reality here now as well. So I’m paying more than anywhere else on the world and have to wait 6 months for a PCP appointment. We have the worst of both worlds.

I'm curious to compare this to other countries that have state owned/mandated insurance and are so far still mostly covering everything and which are always touted as "superior" to the US, who "have the most expensive health care system". Can't use Canada as OHIP et. al. don't cover much and the same employer tied insurance scheme as in the US exists and is necessary. An example of a country with "good healthcare" an…

It is actually more complicated than this implies. For example hospitals are often held afloat by Medicare/Medicaid spending (25%/19%). Private health insurance is about 37%, so larger than either, but smaller than both. But then you have to remember that some of the private health insurance is being subsidized by taxpayer dollars (e.g.: the ACA subsidies), and that private health insurance is largely coming from tax exempt dollars (a form of subsidies). So where the costs are actually being paid is more difficult.

https://www.kff.org/health-costs/key-facts-about-hospitals/?...

I am not sure where your question about a percentage of your salary is valid on the face of it. Do you count the employer portion of your medical coverage as part of your salary? Do you count the tax exemption? How do you figure the taxes taken out to support Medicare/Medicaid/Veterans Health (all of which are required to support the system as it exists)? And how do you figure that for single payer systems?

So a much more direct way of comparing is to look at total costs per person, and then figure out how outcomes compare. When you do that the U.S. comes to about double the cost, and generally worse outcomes. Conservative politicians will scream about how long it takes to get procedures, but the research shows that elective procedures take about the same time (and no-one waits for emergency procedures in comparable systems).

https://www.pgpf.org/article/how-does-the-us-healthcare-syst...

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