Well, instead of repeating myself manually, I'll paste in a comment of mine here from a past discussion on carbon capture: It's easy to forget why there is a bit of a challenge to getting C02 out of the air: there's so little of it, comparatively. In order, air is, broadly, made up of the following: Nitrogen: %78.084 Oxygen: %20.946 Argon: %00.934 CO2: %00.042 The stuff is essentially beyond a rounding error - it rea…
Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
311–320 of 349 posts
Re: Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
#312Direct air capture imo can’t escape the scaling problem - when the feedstock has CO2 at ~400 ppm the economics simply won’t work out despite various oil companies backing one off systems around the globe. Capturing CO2 at the source (power plant, etc) would be simpler to reach economic viability but without incentives it’s dead on arrival. I believe the IRA infra bill had put a price ~$50/ton of CO2 captured.
Re: Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
#313Earlier quoted context omitted.
One idea is to charcoal the wood, it makes it harder to decompose and is similar to pure carbon. I'm not sure if it's better to send it to the bottom of the ocean or just to a big hole on land.
The big hole on land could be dangerous if a fire ever gets there. I suppose, maybe a big hole in the middle of northern Canada might be fine
Re: Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Noticeable cognitive impairment starts in the 700-1000ppm range The US navy failed to detect such effects in submarine crew, even at much higher levels like 10,000 ppm. Another reason to be skeptical is that exhaled breath is 4% CO2 (40,000 ppm!). Therefore a few thousand extra ppm in the inhaled air should not make much of a difference to the homeostasis mechanisms in our bodies.
I don’t need to look at studies in other people, I notice and feel the effects directly at high CO2 levels, such that I can tell when it it too high before checking the meter. I’d need to look at the study, but I also suspect the submariners would be used to high CO2, and also not experienced enough in doing focused creative or knowledge work for impaired abilities there to be detectable.
Please consider the possibility that you can accurately detect increased CO2 (it increases your breathing rate almost instantly for example) without it causing impairement.
Re: Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can have 100% renewable energy. You can't realistically produce cement or steel without using and exhausting large amounts of CO2. This has to be addressed, even if it costs energy (which, as we agreed, can be 100% carbon-neutral).
there is no world in which it is cheaper to produce steel releasing CO2 and recapturing than fobbing off recapture until later. the thermodynamics just don't work.
If you're not including the cost of later recapture, then it's not a fair comparison.
If you are including the cost of later recapture, why is it cheaper to recapture later than to do so immediately?
Re: Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
#316Earlier quoted context omitted.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S036013232... > In this study, a systematic review and meta-analysis of fifteen eligible studies was performed to quantify the effects of short-term CO2 exposure on cognitive task performance. > The complex task performance declined significantly when exposed to additional CO2 concentrations of 1000–1500 ppm and 1500–3000 ppm
It looks like there might be a very small effect starting at around 1000ppm but so small that many studies find no difference at all, and reliable effects are only noted at 3000ppm or more. So we're a long way from needing to scrub co2 from the atmosphere to get any work done
Re: Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
#317Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed. I've always had trouble picturing how to efficiently "unmix the cake" too. CO2 is rare and throughout the whole atmospheric column. What kind of concentration gradient can you get going to meaningfully pull it out from everywhere in human timescales? (Sorry if this nerd-snipes someone stronger with calculus than me.)
Plants capture CO2 from photo synthesis at huge scale. That seems like a great way to capture it at a higher concentration. We’d need to handle the organic matter before natural decomposition, but quite doable.
It is also highly space inefficient and time consuming to grow and store (sequester).
Even if we converted all US cropland (and the US is one of the largest and most fertile countries for growing crops!) to growing trees, for example, we’d need multiple years of growth for every year of fossil carbon we currently release. And we’d all starve.
There is also generally less carbon by weight than you might imagine - even hardwood is typically more water than carbon when harvested, which is a big part of the problem.
To make it time efficient and also stable to store (not just rot and release the carbon immediately as methane or the like), it needs to be converted to a more stable form like charcoal or coke. Which further decreases efficiency and adds costs.
Near as we can tell, it is much better to just not release it (electric cars + solar?), or geo sequester it (olivine minerals seem promising!) or capture and sequester it directly (inefficient, but hey, there are techniques that should scale like pumping back into the original fossil aquifers!).
The biggest issue is economic (and hence political) - fossil fuels are energetically the equivalent of free money. It’s pretty hard to convince people to stop getting free money and pay money instead!
Re: Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
#318Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t need to look at studies in other people, I notice and feel the effects directly at high CO2 levels, such that I can tell when it it too high before checking the meter. I’d need to look at the study, but I also suspect the submariners would be used to high CO2, and also not experienced enough in doing focused creative or knowledge work for impaired abilities there to be detectable.
Med resident here. Please consider the possibility that you can accurately detect increased CO2 (it increases your breathing rate almost instantly for example) without it causing impairement.
I feel irritable, and fatigued/sleepy when CO2 is high. Increased breathing rate by itself activates an undesirable sympathetic nervous system response, that anyone can notice immediately with deliberate breathwork.
Also, it seems likely to me that the same poor air exchange that leads to high co2 causes respiratory disease to spread more rapidly, and with a higher initial viral titer.
Re: Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
#319Re: Efficient method to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
> However Chinese domination .. make even choosing the obviously cheapest (and incidentally clean) option difficult in many parts of the world. In what way? China has basically dwarfed solar installations of any other country combined for the last two years, and produces so many panels and so cheap that EU and US competitors are being driven out of business. China might be the reason we CAN make the transition actual…
Probably thinking that if it appears China is getting global dominance in energy production/energy storage/car manufacturing, the West would block imports out of political and economic expediency. Like the current US administration is doing.
The cat is out of the bag and renewables and storage is the new cheapest globally scalable energy source since the advent of fossil fuel.
Either you embrace them or get left behind.
Sure, try to cultivate a local industry, but doing it by slowing down the progress will only leave you further behind.