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Maybe the default settings are too high

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Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#311

Post by anhner »

anhner wrote: post #146
jimmaswell wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> typing isn't the bottleneck. Not even close. I find it absolutely is much of the time - I'll determine the architecture/overall solution, know exactly what needs to go in a multitude of files, and now actualizing all that isn't really thinking anymore, just donkey work. Getting AI to do this has been incredible now that it's finally good enough. I've had Copilot make flawless 500+LOC C++ classes in the first pass,…

> I've had Copilot make flawless 500+LOC C++ classes in the first pass Lmao, please tell me what products you're working on so I can avoid them

Oh my, the AI bros got upset! You must be cranky from having to fix all those bugs your agent keeps throwing up in your "flawless 500+ LOC" code they keep writing.

Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#312

Post by robocat »

didgetmaster wrote: post #71

If you are bilingual, with one language being stronger than the other one; try reading something in the language you are least comfortable with. I do this (e.g. reading LoTR in Dutch) and it forces me to pay closer attention to each sentence. There are words you don't know or know how to use them properly. It will help you learn the second language better, while also helping you to not gloss over whole passages.

> try reading something in the language you are least comfortable with

I did this with Spanish and it was terrible for learning grammar because things tended to be transliterated from English however I found it good for learning vocab.

I chose really trashy romance novels translated from English e.g. Danielle Steel.

  \* they tended to use more colloquialisms
  \* simple plots, so easy to read
  \* useful words
  \* often transliterated directly from English so easiest forms of grammar
I tried some literature but that was a bad idea (too complex for beginner, and faaar too boring). I just don't like the Spanish literature I have tried reading.

I also found it screwed up my Spanish pronunciation and had a queer side-effect that it permanently slowed down my English reading.

Personally, I think languages should be learnt by talking and mimicking (as much like a baby as possible). Reading is worthwhile for work but I expect to be more careful for the next language I learn.

Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#313

Post by fluoridation »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #305
fluoridation wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The type of tired is "really". What happens is not that there's some additional information that I'm not communicating in that one sentence, but rather that the time it takes you to read "they're both really tired" is not enough for your mind to dwell on the idea and empathize with the characters. Now, if I instead were to write "They're both really tired. They're super tired. Oh man, they're so tired. They're so tir…

Extended time is your own proposal, and one you successfully defeated. This is generally called a strawman. Instead, I propose that the type of tied is informationally and qualitatively distinct. The exhaustion of the weight of the world, internal struggle, amidst a dismal hellscape is different than "really tired". Great writing can build depth of quality and understanding with the authors intent. LOTR could be summ…

>Extended time is your own proposal, and one you successfully defeated. This is generally called a strawman.

Uh... Huh? So it's my argument, which I've refuted, and therefore it's a strawman? I think you should go get refreshed on informal fallacies. No, what's happening here is that there's a phenomenon that's being discussed -- namely, mood-setting in fictional writing -- and I'm proposing as its mechanism not additional information, but rather additional time. If you want to participate in the discussion you can't dismiss my argument my incorrectly calling it a strawman. You have to explain why it doesn't work as an explanation, like this:

>Instead, I propose that the type of tied is informationally and qualitatively distinct. The exhaustion of the weight of the world, internal struggle, amidst a dismal hellscape is different than "really tired".

Yet, if we were to replace the particular flavor of tiredness with a completely different, equally intense one, it would evoke the exact same empathic feeling on the reader, because the imagination is not precise enough to reproduce other people's feelings with such granularity. Someone can't precisely imagine the difference between the tiredness felt by Conan after 12 hours of turning a mill for the sixth day in a row, and that felt by Frodo. The reader is going to reach that passage and feel that the characters are really tired. That's why such long descriptions don't contain any more meaning; because they can be replaced with something completely different and put the same idea in the reader's mind: "Sam and Frodo are really tired".

>LOTR could be summarized with a sentence. The content is in the detail.

I've already addressed that. If the information is the words themselves and not their meaning, then any English text is equally information-dense. "It's raining" contains a third as much information as "it's raining, it's raining, it's raining", since it contains a third as many words.

Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#314

Post by fluoridation »

watwut wrote: post #310
fluoridation wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really "information" in the information-theoretic sense that the other person was using, when it can be rewritten in all manner of different ways while conveying the same overall mood. The densest way to communicate "Sam and Frodo walk across the plain towards Mt. Doom. They're both really tired" is exactly that. All the other words one would write around that core idea would not provide any more specifici…

> Sam and Frodo walk across the plain towards Mt. Doom. They're both really tired. This does not set a mood and thus does not convey the same information. This removes the information about mood and setting away while keeping only rough plot point in. The outcome in terms of how reader interpret the situation is massively different. The thing you wrote implies that all they need is to go to sleep an hour sooner and r…

The thing you're describing that's missing is context, not information. At that point in the plot, the reasons why they couldn't simply take a break wherever they wanted had already been explained, so it didn't need restating. As for mood-setting, I've already addressed that in other replies.

Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#315

Post by troad »

Gigachad wrote: post #162
pitched wrote: post #3

It’s impossible to know if the content itself is worth the extra time and effort. Opportunity Cost is especially high in fiction. I agree that LotR should be on that list though.

When you start thinking about books in terms of opportunity cost, you’re the kind who needs to slow down the most.

Oh no

(Would elaborate, but, y'know. Opportunity cost)

Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#316

Post by toyg »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #258
toyg wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listening to someone talking is how humanity transmitted culture and stories for tens of thousands of years. The fact that "we" cannot tolerate it anymore, is a sign of how badly our brains are being reshaped (or maybe damaged) by screens.

OTOH, fire, writing and sanitation are significant upgrades to what we were doing "for tens of thousands of years". State of nature isn't inherently good. It's bloody, smelly, dirty, and only incidentally nice, by virtue of evolutionary path dependence.

Oral transmission of complex culture is one of the things that separates us from "the state of nature". As we lose it, we move further away from the beasts that conquered the planet and closer to the squirrel.

Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#317

Post by TeMPOraL »

toyg wrote: post #316
TeMPOraL wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH, fire, writing and sanitation are significant upgrades to what we were doing "for tens of thousands of years". State of nature isn't inherently good. It's bloody, smelly, dirty, and only incidentally nice, by virtue of evolutionary path dependence.

Oral transmission of complex culture is one of the things that separates us from "the state of nature". As we lose it, we move further away from the beasts that conquered the planet and closer to the squirrel.

Transmission of complex culture is what separates us (and enables this complex culture in the first place); oral medium is merely one way to do it. Being the first one, it's probably not the best.

Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#318

Post by JumpCrisscross »

fluoridation wrote: post #297
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The densest way to communicate "Sam and Frodo walk across the plain towards Mt. Doom. They're both really tired" is exactly that Uh, yes. This is press-release speak, optimised for a fourth grader’s reading comprehension. If, on the other hand, you want to develop the motif of the Unseen—central to Tolkien’s work—the type of tired the characters are and how they’re detecting and addressing it is incredibly germane,…

The type of tired is "really". What happens is not that there's some additional information that I'm not communicating in that one sentence, but rather that the time it takes you to read "they're both really tired" is not enough for your mind to dwell on the idea and empathize with the characters. Now, if I instead were to write "They're both really tired. They're super tired. Oh man, they're so tired. They're so tir…

> * if I instead were to write "They're both really tired. They're super tired. Oh man, they're so tired. They're so tired, you've never been this tired in your life", that would be extremely shitty writing, but it would give you time to ruminate on the information*

You’ve set up a great question. Why is what you wrote shitty writing while what Tolkien wrote not?

The answer isn’t just variation. If you look at what’s been conveyed in his writing that wasn’t with your repetition, you’ll start unlocking what I suspect you know is there but are having trouble describing.

Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#319

Post by fluoridation »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #318
fluoridation wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The type of tired is "really". What happens is not that there's some additional information that I'm not communicating in that one sentence, but rather that the time it takes you to read "they're both really tired" is not enough for your mind to dwell on the idea and empathize with the characters. Now, if I instead were to write "They're both really tired. They're super tired. Oh man, they're so tired. They're so tir…

> * if I instead were to write "They're both really tired. They're super tired. Oh man, they're so tired. They're so tired, you've never been this tired in your life", that would be extremely shitty writing, but it would give you time to ruminate on the information* You’ve set up a great question. Why is what you wrote shitty writing while what Tolkien wrote not? The answer isn’t just variation. If you look at what’s…

>The answer isn’t just variation.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Re: Maybe the default settings are too high

#320

Post by coolcoder613 »

delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #286
harshreality wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One might also argue that The Little Prince is "far more complex" and deeper than anything written at a typical adult reading level. That lower linguistic surface complexity allows more space for the reader to explore ideas and themes. I'm skeptical. Is there no more value to series like Gormenghast, Book of the New Sun, and The Second Apocalypse, beyond mere literary masochism, compared to LotR? Like them or not, Lo…

One would like to point out that the set {Gormenghast, Book of the New Sun, and The Second Apocalypse} is not a subset of {fantasy books I have come across}. I would not dare to claim that LoTR is the end all of all fantasy writing. Perhaps the word ”complex” was a bad choice here, since I’m sure there is books with more complex structure (which is not necessarily a good thing…) I think what I tried to say is that th…

Not celtic, germanic, i.e. Anglo-Saxon derived words.
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