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Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves

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Re: Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves

#311

Post by dogman144 »

Was fortunate to talk to a security lead who built the data-driven policing network for a major American city that was an early adopter. ALPR vendors like Flock either heavily augment and/or anchor the tech setups.

What was notable to me is the following, and it’s why I think a career spent on either security researching, or going to law school and suing, these vendors into the ground over 20 years would be the ultimate act of civil service:

1. It’s not just Flock cams. It’s the data eng into these networks - 18 wheeler feed cams, flock cams, retail user nest cams, traffic cams, ISP data sales

2. All in one hub, all searchable by your local PD and also the local PD across state lines who doesn’t like your abortion/marijuana/gun/whatever laws, and relying on:

3. The PD to setup and maintain proper RBAC in a nationwide surveillance network that is 100%, for sure, no doubt about it (wait how did that Texas cop track the abortion into Indiana/Illinois…?), configured for least privilege.

4. Or if the PD doesn’t want flock in town, they reinstall cameras against the ruling (Illinois iirc?) or just say “we have the feeds for the DoT cameras in/out of town and the truckers through town so might as well have control over it, PD!”

Layer the above with the current trend in the US, and 2025 model Nissan uploading stop-by-stop geolocation and telematics to cloud (then, sold into flock? Does even knowing for sure if it does or doesn’t even matter?)

Very bad line of companies. Again all is from primary sources who helped implement it over the years. If you spend enough time at cybersecurity conferences you’ll meet people with these jobs.

Re: Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves

#312

Post by eightysixfour »

braingravy wrote: post #302
eightysixfour wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't want to get into an argument over whether kids should be unattended at playgrounds or not - I don't know where the other poster is front and it seems to be based on age, density, region, etc. Where I grew up it would be weird to stay, in the city I am in it would be weird to leave them. If you leave your kids unattended at a playground I don't see how the camera changes the risk factor in any meaningful way.…

It’s anonymity of the viewers combined with mass open-access surveillance that enables an unheard of level of stalking capacity. Most people don’t like the idea that strangers could easily stalk their child remotely. It’s the easy of access to surveillance technology that is different. Has nothing to do with the park being safe or not. Try to think like an evil person with no life and very specific and demonic aims i…

> Try to think like an evil person with no life and very specific and demonic aims if you’re still having trouble seeing why this would be an issue.

That person already has incredible power to stalk and ruin someone's life. Making Flock cameras public would change almost nothing for that person. It fascinates me how fast people jump to "imagine the worst person" when we talk about making data public.

We have the worst people, they're the ones who profit off of it being private, with no public accountability, who don't build secure systems. The theater of privacy is, IMO, worse than not having privacy.

Re: Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves

#314

Post by lazyasciiart »

embedding-shape wrote: post #143
mikkupikku wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it amazes me how often I see this kind of anti-democratic institition sentiment. leeoniya didn't say anything about democracy. The practical reality is that regardless of what forms of government are involved, whichever government has the ability to arrest you is the government which is the greatest threat in your day-to-day life.

> government has the ability to arrest you is the government which is the greatest threat in your day-to-day life Assuming every government is the same, which I'm not so sure about. I rather be arrested by the German government than the US government, mainly because I don't want to disappear to black site and be made to disappear for years while I'm t̶o̶r̶t̶u̶r̶e̶d̶ receiving enhanced discussion techniques. At least…

"The government that has the ability to arrest you" is the one that controls the police on the street you live on. Not some abstract commentary on which government is best at arresting people.

Re: Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves

#315

Post by femiagbabiaka »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #258
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another sign of Chinese ideological dominance is that nobody can conceive of a future that does not mimic China's solutions to social problems. Trump says frequently that he's jealous of Xi's position as dictator, tech firms envy 996 culture, public safety advocates are pivoting to restricting internet speech and constant surveillance.. etc. etc.

Well a lot of people can conceive of a cultural hegemony that is more pleasant to live under. It’s more that Y Combinator wants to be exposed to the returns of the Palantirs, Andurils and Clearviews out there.

Possibly. I think, at the very least, Garry Tan is a true believer. He's not proposing putting this in someone else's neighborhood or city, he wants it in SF, SJ, Berkeley, etc.

Re: Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves

#316

Post by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS »

rimbo789 wrote: post #291
chzblck wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they prob be upset about the 13th 15th and 19th amendments too

Yea they would have had no issue with flock if it was for capturing escaped enslaved people

They aren't a monolithic group. There was a wide range of opinions on slavery and many other topics. Do a bit of research.

Re: Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves

#317

Post by quitit »

dvtkrlbs wrote: post #7
edot wrote: post #6

Flock or their defenders will lock in on the excuse that “oh these are misconfigured” or “yeah hacking is illegal, only cops should have this data”. The issue is neither of the above. The issue is the collection and collation of this footage in the first place! I don’t want hackers watching me all the time, sure, but I DEFINITELY don’t trust the state or megacorps to watch me all the time. Hackers concern me less, ac…

Yes and the biggest problem with this kind of ALPRs are they bypass the due process. Most of the time police can just pull up data without any warrant and there has been instances where this was abused (I think some cops used this for stalking their exes [1]) and also the most worrying Flock seems to really okay with giving ICE unlimited access to this data [2] [3] (which I speculate for loose regulations). [1]: http…

I keep an unofficial record of instances where police and similar authorities have abused their access to these types of systems. The list is long. It's almost exclusively men stalking ex-partners or attractive women they don't know, but have seen in public.

What's frightening is it's not rare, it actually happens constantly, and this is just within the systems which have a high level of internal logging/user-tracking.

So now with Flock and data brokers we have authorities having access to information that was originally held behind a judge's signature. Often with little oversight, and frequently for unofficial, abusive purposes.

This reality also ties back to the discussion about providing the "good guys" encryption backdoors. The reality is that there are no "good guys", everyone exists in shades of grey, and I dare say there are people in forces whom are attracted to the power the role provides, rather than any desire for public service.

In conclusion it's a fundamental design flaw to rely on the operator being a "good guy", and that's before we get into the problem of leaks, bugs, and flaws in the security model, or in this case: complete open access to the public web - laughable, farcical, and horrifying.

Re: Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves

#318

Post by FireBeyond »

chaps wrote: post #255
rsync wrote: post #250

There's an interesting idea here that is tangentially related to "common carrier" regulations ... Specifically: If a flock (or similar) camera is deployed on public land/infra there should exist default permission for any alternate vendor to deploy a camera in the same location. I wonder how that could be used and/or abused and, further, what the response from a company like flock would be ...

Not directly an answer to your question, but installed Shotspotter locations are generally "not shared with police" and installations are done in a way where the location is obfuscated away from the police/city through Shotspotter contractors. It's not actually true that the device locations aren't shared with the police, but shotspotter/police testimonies in shotspotter cases say so anyway.

I have absolutely zero faith in any of this.

Multiple cases have revealed that it seemed like police and Shotspotter worked hand-in-glove to tweak Shotspotter data and demographics to help shore up a case and make things appear more reliable than they were.

And multiple cases where, sufficiently pushed, DAs have dropped cases or dropped Shotspotter as evidence rather than have the narrative challenged too closely.

Re: Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves

#320

Post by kawfey »

superultra wrote: post #306
jjwiseman wrote: post #160

The CEO of Flock, Garrett Langley, called Deflock a terrorist group. It's unhinged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-kZGrDz7PU

I live in an Atlanta neighborhood where one of the founders lived. A prototype for Flock Camera was designed by three Georgia Tech grads because someone kept breaking into their car (not uncommon in our neighborhood tbh). The trick is that the camera was pointed towards a middle school. Which means they were constantly recording kids without adult consent. Now, years later, Atlanta is the most surveilled city in Nort…

That makes a lot of sense… I’m in the rich/middle class north Atlanta burbs visiting family, and the entrance to every cul-de-sac has a flock LPR pointing inwards.

I didn’t notice it at all last year but the cameras were there. Benn blew the cap off and now they’re omnipresent.

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