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CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

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Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#311

Post by westurner »

jakewins wrote: post #220
alextingle wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It ought to be cheaper at scale. Batteries' cost scales linearly with storage capacity. Cost for a plant like this scales linearly with the storage rate - the compressor and turbine are the expensive part, while the pressure vessels and gas bags are relatively cheap. The bigger you build it, the less it costs per MWh of storage.

> Energy Dome expects its LDES solution to be 30 percent cheaper than lithium-ion. Grid scale lithium is dropping in cost about 10-20% per year, so with a construction time of 2 years per the article lithium will be cheaper by the time the next plant is completed

LDES: Long-Duration Energy Storage

Grid energy storage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#312

Post by westurner »

westurner wrote: post #311
jakewins wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Energy Dome expects its LDES solution to be 30 percent cheaper than lithium-ion. Grid scale lithium is dropping in cost about 10-20% per year, so with a construction time of 2 years per the article lithium will be cheaper by the time the next plant is completed

LDES: Long-Duration Energy Storage Grid energy storage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

Metrics for LDES: Levelized Cost of Storage (LCOS), Gravimetric Energy Density, Volumetric Energy Density, Round-Trip Efficiency (RTE), Self-Discharge Rate, Cycle Life, Technical Readiness Level (TRL), Power-to-Energy Decoupling, Capital Expenditure (CAPEX), R&D CapEx, Operational Expenditure (OPEX), Charging Cost, Response Time, Depth of Discharge, Environmental & Social Governance (ESG) Impact

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#313

Post by mannyv »

thradgt wrote: post #155
cornstalks wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are way cheaper options than the Anker Solix 3800. Here are some options, in no particular order: - $3,300: 10 kWh with 2x EG4 WallMount Indoor 100Ah. - $3,110: 14 kWh with 1x WallMount Indoor 280Ah. - $2,690: 10 kWh with 1x Deye RW F10.2 B - Will Prowse's YouTube channel has reviewed several battery builds that are >10 kWh and near $2,000, but they're DIY assembly.

Batteryhookup has batteries for $40/kWh :) just put together a off grid setup for a friend and 8kwh cost $400 in parts!

I'll check that out. The goal is to get to something that runs all night (or almost all night) with around 1kwh output using as little space as possible. I've just started poking around, but this'll help.

In the third world there's plenty of sunlight, but you don't need the power during the day necessarily. That price'll get to $400 for storage, $400 for panels, which is ballpark.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#314

Post by mannyv »

cornstalks wrote: post #182
coryrc wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And still much more than the cost of the solar panels, which was GP's point.

GP only has two panels that generate 960 W (I’m going to generously assume NMOT and not STC). That’s hardly anything, and certainly not what I would use to try and charge 10 kWh of battery like they’re suggesting. But sure, I agree it would help if battery prices came down.

During the day when nobody's home the panels are charging the battery.

Obviously more panels are better.

The goal is to be able to run a small window AC unit and various small appliances at night. That's a tremendous quality-of-life upgrade for a huge number of people. $1000 USD would make it somewhat affordable, in the window for a viable small business/NGO opportunity. There's obviously a whole lot more (installation, labor, maintenance, etc), but material cost needs to be low for it to work.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#315

Post by api »

mr_toad wrote: post #112
api wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So… it’s a compressed air battery but with a better working fluid than air. I remember wondering about using natural gas or propane for this a long time ago. Not burning the gas but using it as a compressed gas battery. It liquifies easier than air, etc., but would be a big fire risk if there were leaks while this is not. Seems neat.

Maybe use excess power to produce methane via the sabatier reaction, store that, and then burn it in turbines or use it in fuel cells when needed. It’ll be interesting to see how the economics of these various solutions play out.

The problem with that is usually efficiency. Electrochemical or thermal production of methane from CO2 and H2O is not very efficient, and then you're burning it, which is only heat engine efficiency.

Batteries or direct mechanical storage (compressed gas, pumped hydro, etc.) are both a lot more efficient.

This would make sense if solar gets so cheap that it's something to do with the surplus, and it would be a way to electrify things like long haul aviation where batteries are too heavy. We are flying LNG rockets, so LNG planes are totally possible, or you could upgrade methane to butane or propane which are quite easy to compress to liquid form. Jet engines run great on light weight fuels like that.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#316

Post by scotty79 »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #309
scotty79 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not say tomorrow. It will definitely take time. What I'm opposing is flippantly relegating a new technology with real benfits, that the largest manufacturer of lithium batteries is significantly betting on, to the 0.01% of the market. You say 0.01%, largest manufacturer of lithium batteries says 50%. If you meet half way it's still about 25% which is significant. https://undecidedmf.com/why-the-biggest-battery-…

Oh god, of course it's mr undecided. Go thru years of his hype videos and decide if ANY of his predictions were right. Goes well with EV viking and "just (don't) have a think". Yes, eventually it might be 50%, but right now you can't even get _specs_ from CATL while LFPs are traded like commodity.

I have no respect for what mr undecided is saying. I have respect for what CATL is saying.

https://www.catl.com/en/news/6401.html

Are you sure you aren't the one blinded by hype?

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#317

Post by dzhiurgis »

scotty79 wrote: post #316
dzhiurgis wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh god, of course it's mr undecided. Go thru years of his hype videos and decide if ANY of his predictions were right. Goes well with EV viking and "just (don't) have a think". Yes, eventually it might be 50%, but right now you can't even get _specs_ from CATL while LFPs are traded like commodity.

I have no respect for what mr undecided is saying. I have respect for what CATL is saying. https://www.catl.com/en/news/6401.html Are you sure you aren't the one blinded by hype?

This a PR release. For example - where's volumetric density?

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#318

Post by GoToRO »

openasocket wrote: post #287

I don’t know much about chemistry, but is there a reason why they are using CO2 as the gas medium instead of something else? I was thinking ambient air would be readily available, and you don’t have to worry about suffocating people if it ruptures. Is CO2 particularly efficient to compress?

Air is no good because it has moisture in it. When you decompress it, it becomes ice, blocking and breaking pipes.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#319

Post by scotty79 »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #317
scotty79 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no respect for what mr undecided is saying. I have respect for what CATL is saying. https://www.catl.com/en/news/6401.html Are you sure you aren't the one blinded by hype?

This a PR release. For example - where's volumetric density?

Intelligence is the ability to infer correctly from incomplete data.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#320

Post by cloverich »

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #187
cloverich wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait that Anker Solix 3800 costs more than my 84kwh battery containing _car_ (3.8 kwh x 22 batteries)? Something not right.

Are you saying you bought an electric car with functional 84kwh pack for less than 3 grand? If so I think the outlier is you. That is a better deal than I have seen.

Did I read incorrectly?

> which is around 3.8kwh, costs $2400 USD. To store 10kwh would cost $7200 USD (which gets us more than 10kwh).

84kwh / 3.8 kwh is about 22. 22 * 2400 is ~53k.

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