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AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

tomwphillips.co.uk

311–320 of 683 posts

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#311
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| Drop the politics Politics is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals, such as the distribution of status or resources . Most municipalities literally do not have enough spare power to service this 1.4 trillion dollar capital rollout as planned on paper. Even if they did, the concurrent inflation of energy costs is about as polit…

There are politics and there are Politics, and I don't think the two of you are using the same definition. 'Making decisions in groups' does not require 'oversimplifying issues for the sake of tribal cohesion or loyalty'. It is a distressingly common occurrence that complex problems are oversimplified because political effectiveness requires appealing to a broader audience. We'd all be better off if more people withh…

My definition is the definition. You cannot nuance wash the material conditions that are increasing tribal polarization. Rising inequality and uncertainty create fear and discontent, people that offer easy targets for that resentment will have more sway.

The rise of populist polemic as the most effective means for driving public behavior is also downstream from 'neutral technical solutions' designed to 'maximize engagement (anger) to maximize profit'. This is not actually a morally neutral choice and we're all dealing with the consequence. Adding AI is fuel for the fire.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#312
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also from that article: > U.S. data centers consume 449 million gallons of water per day and 163.7 billion gallons annually (as of 2021). Sounds bad! Now let's compare that to agriculture. USGS 2015 report: https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2018/3035/fs20183035.pdf has irrigation at 118 billion gallons per day - that's 43,070 billion gallons per year. 163.7 billion / 43,070 billion * 100 = 0.38 - less than half a percentage p…

Agriculture feeds people, Simon. It's fair to be critical of how the ag industry uses that water, but a significant fraction of that activity is effectively essential. If you're going to minimize people's concern like this, at least compare it to discretionary uses we could ~live without. The data's about 20 years old, but for example https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Water%20Resource%2... suggests we were us…

Growing almonds is just as essential as building an AI. Eating beef at the rate americans do is not essential. Thats where basically all the water usage is going.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#313
post #12

Tip for AI skeptics: skip the data center water usage argument. At this point I think it harms your credibility - numbers like "millions of liters of water annually" (from the linked article) sound scary when presented without context, but if you compare data centers to farmland or even golf courses they're minuscule. Other energy usage figures, air pollution, gas turbines, CO2 emissions etc are fine - but if you com…

>Tip for AI skeptics

Assumptions you are making:

- AI = transformer ANNs

- People sceptical of transformer ANNs directly leading to AGI within any reasonable period are also sceptical of transformer ANNs directly leading to AGI any time in the far future

This kind of generalisations don't help you as the huge number of comments underneath yours likely shows

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you imagine AGI as a robot and not as datacenter solving all kinds of problems? AGI means it can replace basically all human white collar work, alpha evolve can't do that while average humans can. White collar work is mostly done by average humans after all, if average humans can learn that then so should an AGI. An easier test is that the AGI must be able to beat most computer games without being trained on tho…

AlphaEvolve demonstrates that Google can build a system which can be trained to do very challenging intelligent tasks (e.g. research-level math). Isn't it just an optimization problem from this point? E.g. now training take a lot of hardware and time. If they make it so efficient that training can happen in matter of minutes and cost only few dollars, won't it satisfy your criterion? I'm not saying AlphaEvolve is "AG…

I think most people would agree that AlphaEvolve is not AGI, but any AGI system must be a bit like AlphaEvolve, in the sense that it must be able to iteratively interact with an external system towards some sort of goal stated both abstractly and using some metrics.

I like to think that the fundamental difference between AlphaEvolve and your typical genetic / optimization algorithms is the ability to work with the context of its goal in an abstract manner instead of just the derivatives of the cost function against the inputs, thus being able to tackle problems with mind-boggling dimensionality.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#315
post #12

Tip for AI skeptics: skip the data center water usage argument. At this point I think it harms your credibility - numbers like "millions of liters of water annually" (from the linked article) sound scary when presented without context, but if you compare data centers to farmland or even golf courses they're minuscule. Other energy usage figures, air pollution, gas turbines, CO2 emissions etc are fine - but if you com…

>Tip for AI skeptics Assumptions you are making: - AI = transformer ANNs - People sceptical of transformer ANNs directly leading to AGI within any reasonable period are also sceptical of transformer ANNs directly leading to AGI any time in the far future This kind of generalisations don't help you as the huge number of comments underneath yours likely shows

I don't think anyone who read my comment here misunderstood my usage of the term "AI skeptic" as applying to any form of machine learning as opposed to modern generative AI.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#316
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. It seems like a symptom of a larger issue: people are becoming increasingly selfish and entrenched in their own bubbles. It’s hard to see a path back to sanity from here.

Well, I share your pain .. but was it ever really better in reality? Unfortunately it is not like human society in history had truth as the highest virtue.

Human societies? No.

Subcultures? Some are at least trying to (i.e. rationalists), though imperfectly and with side-effects.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#317
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also, none of those current use cases are a real benefit to society, outside of maybe research cases. The only benefit is to the already wealthy owner class that is itching to not have to pay for employees anymore because it impacts their bottom line (payroll is typically the largest expense). It's not like we are making robots to automate agriculture and manufacturing to move toward a post scarcity, moneyless so…

You appear to be arguing against using technology to boost human efficiency on a forum full of software engineers who've dedicated their careers to building software that makes humans more efficient. If we aren't doing that then why are we building software?

Because the stated goal of generative AI is not to make an individual more efficient, it's to replace that individual all together and completely eliminate the bottom rungs of the professional career ladder.

Historically software that made humans more efficient resulted in empowerment for the individual, and also created a need for new skilled roles. Efficiency gains were reinvested into the labor market. More people could enter into higher paying work.

With generative AI, if these companies achieve their stated goals, what happens to the wealth generated by the efficiency?

If we automate agriculture and manufacturing, the gain is distributed as post-scarciaty wealth to everyone.

If we automate the last few remaining white-collar jobs that pay a living wage, the gain is captured entirely by the capital owners & investors via elimination of payroll, while society only loses one of its last high-paying ladders for upward mobility.

Nobody lost their career because we built a faster operating system or a better compiler. With generative AI's stated goals, any efficiency gains are exclusively for those at the very top, while everyone else gets screwed.

Now, I'll concede and say, that's not the AI companies' fault. I'm not saying we shouldn't magically stop developing this technology, but we absolutely need our governments to start thinking about the ramifications it can have and start seriously considering things like UBI to be prepared for when the bottom falls out of the labor market.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#318
post #12

Tip for AI skeptics: skip the data center water usage argument. At this point I think it harms your credibility - numbers like "millions of liters of water annually" (from the linked article) sound scary when presented without context, but if you compare data centers to farmland or even golf courses they're minuscule. Other energy usage figures, air pollution, gas turbines, CO2 emissions etc are fine - but if you com…

> sound scary when presented without context It's not about it being scary, its about it being a gigantic, stupid waste of water, and for what? So that lazy executives and managers can generate their shitty emails they used to have their comms person write for them, so that students can cheat on their homework, or so degens can generate a video of MLK dancing to rap? Because thats the majority of the common usage at…

Its not gigantic and its not a waste. Brainrot creates massive economic value that can be used to pay people for products you are more happy to consume.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#319
I get the skepticism about the dramedy of burning future AGI in effigy. But given humans are always a dramady, I don’t judge odd or hyperbolic behaviors too harshly from a distance.

It’s too easy to dismiss others’ idiosyncrasies and miss the signal. And the story involves a successful and capable person communicating poetically about an area they have a track record in that probably the author of this article and most of us can’t compete with.

I am struck by any technical person that still thinks AGI is any kind of barrier, or what they expect the business plan of a leader in AI, with a global list of competitors, is supposed to look like?

AGI is talked about like a bright line, but it’s more a line of significance to us than any kind of technical barrier.

This isn’t writing. Although that changed everything.

This isn’t the printing press. Although that changed everything.

This isn’t the telegraph. Although that changed everything.

This isn’t the phonograph, radio communication, the Internet, web or mobile phones. Although those changed everything.

This is intelligence. The meta technology of all technology.

And intelligence is the part of the value chain that we currently earn a living at. In the biosphere. In the econosphere.

The artificial kind is moving forward very fast, despite every delay seeming to impress people. “We haven’t achieved X yet” isn’t an argument at any time, but certainly not in the context of today’s accelerated progress.

It is moving forward faster than any single human, growing up from birth, ever has or ever will, if it helps to think of it that way.

Nor is, “they haven’t replaced us yet” an argument. We were always going to be replaced. We didn’t repeal the laws of competition and adaptation “this time”.

Our species was never going to maintain supremacy after we unleashed technology’s ability to accumulate capabilities faster than we or any biological machine could ever hope to evolve.

It isn’t even a race is it? How fast is the Human Bio Intelligence Enhancements Department going? Or the Human Intelligence Breeding Club? Not very fast I think.

Very few AI die hards ever imagined we would be anywhere near this close to AGI today, in 2025, even five years ago, circa Ancient (i.e. January) 2020. There is a dose of singularity.

Yet in retrospect, 99% of AI progress is attributable to faster and more transistors. Today’s architectures fine tune algorithms that existed in the mid-1980’s. Getting here was more about waiting for computer hardware to be ready than anything else. Current investments don’t reflect that main driver stalling, but exploding.

Once we have AGI, we will have already passed it. Or, more accurately, it will have passed us. Don’t spend much time imagining a stable karmic world of parity. Other than as a historically nice trope for some fun science fiction where our continued supremacy made for good story. That’s not what compounding progress looks like.

Chaotically compounding progress has been the story of life. And then tech. It isn’t going to suddenly stop for us.

What an odd and transparently motivated thought.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#320
"Reading Empire of AI by Karen Hao, I was struck by how people associated with OpenAI believe in AGI. They really do think someone, perhaps them, will build AGI, and that it will lead to either the flourishing or destruction of humanity."

"I think it's remarkable that what was until recently sci-fi fantasy has become a mainstream view in Silicon Valley."

I think the use of the term "believe" is remarkable

According to the "AI experts" there are "believers" and "skeptics"

Science fiction is exactly that: fiction

For decades, software developers cannot stop using the word "magic", "magically", etc.

Silicon Valley is a place for believers

A place where promoters like Steve Jobs can, according to one Apple employee, distort reality^1

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._T._Barnum

Some people enjoy science fiction and fantasy. Others may not care for it. It's a matter of taste

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