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Australia has so much solar that it's offering everyone free electricity

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Re: Australia has so much solar that it's offering everyone free electricity

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

€0.1 is about AU$0.18 That’s about what our electricity used to cost. Back before we locked ourselves in to wind and solar, and gas peaker plants, and a massive pumped hydro project that will approximate never be finished. Sweden’s energy mix is predominantly nuclear, oil, and hydro. Wind and solar account for 10% and 1% respective. There’s no escaping the fact everything wind and solar go electricity prices go up. D…

> In Australia, since 2005 wind and solar have increased to about 11% and 17% of electricity generation respectively. > And that time period correlates perfectly with the just over 100-200% increase in electricity prices, depending on where you live. I'll say this one thing and get out of the way. The price shock began in 2022[1] (see figure 1). The rise in energy costs aren't due to solar and wind generation , which…

You can’t have distributed low power density intermittent solar and wind electricity generation at scales that matter without stupendous amounts of steel and concrete transmission infrastructure having to be built where no one lives or works, nor wants to, to connect them to places people do want to live and work.

There’s no way that can be separated from grid-scale wind and solar.

The level of self deception renewables advocates subject themselves to would be funny if I wasn’t forced to pay for it.

You also can’t have it without peaking capability. Which means being able to cover possibly all demand instantaneously, and that was always going to mean expensive gas / battery projects that sit idle a lot of the time. We tried it I warn you.

That wildly profitable Neoen battery? Where do you think the profits come from? Thin air? The end user. That’s you and me mate, we’re paying for it. Low income earners disproportionately so. Renters who can’t have solar or batteries. They can just freeze in the dark.

I’m all for profits when they’re mine. I can’t understand why anyone would worship someone else’s profits. Your profits are my costs.

I just drove half way across the country, from the south east to the middle of South Australia.

Broken wind turbines 300k, from the nearest industrial centre. Probably 600+k from the nearest capable industrial centre.

They’ll never get fixed. No one is driving a $1200 an hour crane five hours each way to spend six days set up waiting for a technician and parts from Europe who was supposed to be here two weeks ago to fix one or two turbines / broken blades. Those handful of broken turbines probably don’t even have spare parts available, every wind farm is a new model of turbine, locked in to one manufacturer indefinitely for after sales parts and service, and if they do have spare parts and service available the payback period on the repairs would be astronomical.

It’s cheaper to let them rot in place and build new ones elsewhere. You don’t get greenfields grid-scale rebates for performing maintenance on ten+ year old equipment.

I dare you to run the numbers on the quantity of steel and concrete needed globally to transition to wind and solar.

Or don’t, cos it will put you off renewables. And there’s nothing worse than having your preconceived notions of what’s right and wrong jump out of the math and throttle your brain. The concrete related CO2 emissions alone will choke the planet way beyond what we’ve merely dabbled with getting to this stage.

I used to do paid and volunteer work for The Wilderness Society and donate to Greenpeace. Then I learned applied mathematics.

Re: Australia has so much solar that it's offering everyone free electricity

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Australia, since 2005 wind and solar have increased to about 11% and 17% of electricity generation respectively. > And that time period correlates perfectly with the just over 100-200% increase in electricity prices, depending on where you live. I'll say this one thing and get out of the way. The price shock began in 2022[1] (see figure 1). The rise in energy costs aren't due to solar and wind generation , which…

You can’t have distributed low power density intermittent solar and wind electricity generation at scales that matter without stupendous amounts of steel and concrete transmission infrastructure having to be built where no one lives or works, nor wants to, to connect them to places people do want to live and work. There’s no way that can be separated from grid-scale wind and solar. The level of self deception renewab…

> stupendous amounts of steel and concrete transmission infrastructure

Rooftop solar and home batteries keeps power where it's used for domestic use. Large scale solar is also deployed near to mining and refining sites, and not by mandate, but because it's the most economic option. If you have batteries you don't need to build out transmission.

> You also can’t have it without peaking capability.

Once again, enough batteries and gas peakers are out of business.

> That wildly profitable Neoen battery? Where do you think the profits come from? Thin air? The end user. That’s you and me mate, we’re paying for it.

They come from arbitrage. Buy low, sell high. They same thing that anyone with a home battery or EV can do. Neoen actively reduced the market prices for electricity by increasing supply at the right time. That means the people of South Australia profited mate ;)

> Renters who can’t have solar or batteries.

The OP article is about distributing free power to everyone to take advantage of. Assuming that plays out, I can only see this as Good News™ for renters.

> They can just freeze in the dark.

Lighting isn't really what's chewing up the power. But certainly people going cold because of high energy prices sucks. Again, the prices have increased due to gas export prices increasing the wake of the Ukraine conflict. This isn't "self deception" it's just economics.

I could list ways that free energy in the middle of day could be used by renters and for low income earners to stay warn, but I get the vibe that you've got an axe to grind and I'd be wasting my time. So, as promised, I'm moving on.

Re: Australia has so much solar that it's offering everyone free electricity

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t have distributed low power density intermittent solar and wind electricity generation at scales that matter without stupendous amounts of steel and concrete transmission infrastructure having to be built where no one lives or works, nor wants to, to connect them to places people do want to live and work. There’s no way that can be separated from grid-scale wind and solar. The level of self deception renewab…

> stupendous amounts of steel and concrete transmission infrastructure Rooftop solar and home batteries keeps power where it's used for domestic use. Large scale solar is also deployed near to mining and refining sites, and not by mandate, but because it's the most economic option. If you have batteries you don't need to build out transmission. > You also can’t have it without peaking capability. Once again, enough b…

I’m definitely listening if you can share ideas of how renters are suppose to time shift heating / cooling and hot water to the middle of the day.

Time shifting a load of washing (cold water) to the middle of the day is irrelevant.

Re: Australia has so much solar that it's offering everyone free electricity

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How is that even remotely related to this topic or to what OP said? Or do you just have a thing you want to rant about no matter the topic?

[dead]

Re: Australia has so much solar that it's offering everyone free electricity

#315
post #309
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I am struggling to maintain the assumption of good faith. As I’ve said throughout, slavery is bad. That doesn’t change the fact that cheap solar panels are good and will save millions of lives. I have never said that the latter justifies the former, that’s something you invented. I would suggest a more nuanced understanding that not everything fits into a binary good/bad mentality, especially when talki…

> At this point I am struggling to maintain the assumption of good faith. You began your comments by calling me a creationist. You never had good faith to begin with. > I would suggest a more nuanced understanding There is nothing nuanced or subtle here. This is not complex. We're talking specifically about solar panels. Slave labour is being used to produce those solar panels. You're trying to make the case that's s…

Note the word “like”: I was using a simile not to say you are a creationist but to convey the idea that any time you have to chop a single sentence that aggressively you might want to consider whether that strengthens your argument or undercuts it. If the full sentence doesn't support your thesis, maybe you want to reconsider your approach.

This is highly relevant to your penultimate and last sentence, which demonstrate how you're arguing against a strawman: I never said it was a net good, and nor does it appear that OP did, and nothing you linked to could change the opinion of anyone in this thread on how the Uyghurs have been treated since everyone already agreed that it's very bad.

That still doesn't remove the benefits of cheap solar, especially because it's not like 100% of their solar production depends on forced labor. Both the current and previous administration have been willing to enforce the existing laws banning those imports (as have other countries such as Australia) so it's not like the only two options are “no Chinese solar panels” or “look the other way”:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_Forced_Labor_Prevention...

Re: Australia has so much solar that it's offering everyone free electricity

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowy 2.0 isn’t an electricity generator, it’s pumped hydro. It relies on electricity being generated elsewhere. The governments plan is bait and switch. Make it seem lucrative at the start, and then squeeze everyone who committed on better terms by ratcheting up the fees and ratcheting down the feed-in tariffs. Alternatively, we could have built a handful of big combined cycle gas plants, close to the retiring coal…

Further to my comment about: In October 2025, the scheme was reported to be 67% complete but it could not be completed within the A$12 billion forecast cost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_2.0_Pumped_Storage_Power... 6 years, incomplete, expected to cost well over six times the initial estimate if it ever gets completed. Expect Snow 2.0 to a big impact on electricity prices in Australia. Upwards . We’ll have to…

It holds 350MWh and is expected to have a lifetime of 150 years.

Lets do a little arithmetic with conservative values rather than those figures. Assume supplies 200MHw per day, and eventually costs $15B and only lasts 50 years:

    15e9 [$] / (200e3 [kWh/day] * 365 [day/yr] * 50 [yr]) = 0.004 [$ / kWh]
Yep, you right, that added 0.4¢ per kWh for overnight storage is gonna ruin us all for sure. /s
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