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Harnessing America's heat pump moment

heatpumped.org

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Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#311

Post by sitharus »

yojo wrote: post #162
sitharus wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was shocked when I saw the price of heat pump installation in the US, even with an existing ducted system. There’s no reason a reversible heat pump system should be significantly more expensive than a cooling only one.

It’s bonkers. I bought a pre-charged ductless mini split to DIY. Took my dad and I about four hours to do the install. So call it 8 hours of semi-skilled labor. The unit was $1350, I added a line set cover, pad and feet for another $200, and needed about $200 in electrical equipment - it was a long wire run and code requires installing a disconnect box. The only special tool was a hole saw bit for running the coolant…

In New Zealand a pretty basic 3.5kW (the internet told me that’s about a “ton”) mini split will cost about NZ$2000 including basic installation - that’s with the units on the same wall, ground floor, including the line set cover and running a new circuit if you need one. A 9.7kW model is only $3500. Again New Zealand dollars so halve that for US. Also that includes a 10 year warranty.

I know our labour costs are going to be lower, but not that much lower. Glassdoor indicates that salary for a US HVAC installer is about US$60k, and in NZ a local equivalent says NZ$60k, so I’d expect the numbers to be the same.

Oh and that price includes all taxes and excludes rebates (which most of us don’t qualify for anyway)

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#313

Post by ZeroGravitas »

adrianN wrote: post #305
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some locations you can't rent out places without minimum energy efficiency ratings, which then leads to insulation and heat pumps getting installed.

Where is that?

This is referred to as "Minimum Energy Efficiency Standards (MEES)" and seems to have been pioneered in the UK and adopted by Netherlands and France and then the EU generally.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#314

Post by [deleted] »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #77

All this push to electrify everything makes me nervous, as it effectively centralizes a lever that someone evil enough could use to coerce the general public in unsavory ways. I'm doubly suspicious of areas that combine mass-electrification with reducing availability of the most reliable alternate source of electricity (i.e. generators). California in particular is pushing to make generators increasingly hard to obta…

[deleted]

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#315

Post by antonymoose »

stavros wrote: post #304
CalRobert wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not pick up a few mini splits from Home Depot and slap them in yourself?

I think the better question here is "why can't I pay a fair price for an expert to do this for me?". What has happened to the market?

One question I would have is how distorted is your area, economically?

I live in the Appalachian mountains, so one would think it should be reasonable labor rates for an area with a middle-low cost of living.

Except that we have a lake the next town over which is entirely covered in millionaire lake houses, so anyone working a trade here can and will charge obscene rates to local, normal people because they can command that rate from a rich transplant that is price insensitive.

You can occasionally find a good, reasonable guy or company still, but you’ll be calling around for days to find them.

Having previously spent a decade in a hot-market (Charleston, SC) you’ll find similar stories, there are plenty of workers in the area, but they’re almost always expecting to charge rates to wealthy price-insensitive transplants.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#316

Post by stavros »

antonymoose wrote: post #315
stavros wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the better question here is "why can't I pay a fair price for an expert to do this for me?". What has happened to the market?

One question I would have is how distorted is your area, economically? I live in the Appalachian mountains, so one would think it should be reasonable labor rates for an area with a middle-low cost of living. Except that we have a lake the next town over which is entirely covered in millionaire lake houses, so anyone working a trade here can and will charge obscene rates to local, normal people because they can comma…

You've kind of exposed me, I'm not in the US, my question was in the first person but it was more that I'm curious as to the causes of what the commenters report. You may be right about the area just being HCoL, though.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#317

Post by slumberlust »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #80
Glyptodon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do newer ones somehow not need ducts? Edit: (or so you mean mini splits?)

No, no ductless magic without mini splits. I feel like a lot of people refer to heat pump systems interchangeably with ductless mini splits, so I wanted to clarify that. Maybe that's just an issue with the people I speak with, though.

What's the difference? They all work on the exact same closed loop evaporation cycle no?

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#318

Post by everdrive »

danielsju6 wrote: post #148

Maybe I have scar tissue from COVID prices but $20k to install a ductless heat pump vs. a $200 to throw a window A/C in or $700 for a portable heat pump. While I get that these heat pumps are better for the environment and much more efficient it's a last mile issue. The installers charge an arm and a leg and I'm not hurting enough to self install. I'm hoping the window heat pumps that just run off mains will be avail…

We just got quoted $20k for the minimum setup for our house. Meanwhile, I have two "free" window units which probably cost me an additional $300 in the summer. I really want heat pumps, but I just can't see how I can justify it for $20k.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#319

Post by owenthejumper »

ssuds wrote: post #129
darth_avocado wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most homeowners in california actually see operating cost parity or a slight decrease, even with super expensive electricity But you’re missing my first point though, installing a heat pump system comes with a price tag of tens of thousands of dollars. I’m not doing that if my operating cost is at parity or a slight decrease. It’s the same reason people are no longer incentivized to install solar. And to add to tha…

The first point is very valid too. There was an energy commission study a few years ago, and up front cost is pretty consistently one of the biggest barriers to heat pump adoption. I think there's some nuance to that, though. Even replacing a furnace + AC in California amounts to tens of thousands of dollars! It's not that heat pumps are expensive, it's that construction work in general is expensive. When you frame i…

Good article, but I must point out that in no way will private equity reduce prices. It will be the exact opposite

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#320

Post by zemvpferreira »

upcoming-sesame wrote: post #310
kalleboo wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For comparison, I just bought a house here in Japan. Installed 6 minisplit heat pumps across various rooms in the house. All together it cost me 750,000 yen ($5,000) for the hardware and 90,000 yen ($600) for the install.

Do you mean 6 A/C units ? I. e. 6 outdoor and indoor units regardless, this is incredibly cheap

It’s very normal here in Portugal. If you looked carefully and weren’t picky about the brands, you could have 6 mini-splits installed for $3000 all-in.
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