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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#311

Post by munksbeer »

voldacar wrote: post #183

The EU tries something like this every few years. If you don't want this to happen, you have to win every time, while they only have to win once. It's an unsustainable situation.

Every thread on this I have to post the same thing, which I hope will make people inform themselves, because we need our attention to be directed at the correct people.

> The EU tries something like this every few years.

This is NOT the EU trying it (I'm not even sure you know what you mean when you say "The EU"). This is certain groups of politicians from certain EU member states raising it again and again.

Please keep yourselves informed, don't spread an incorrect message, because this is an important issue to fight and needs accurate information.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#312

Post by Xelbair »

jdiez17 wrote: post #278
pembrook wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is the legally accurate description of the AfD [1]. Just like it is legally correct to call Björn Höcke a fascist. [1] https://medienservice.sachsen.de/medien/news/1071656

There's distinction between legality, reality and morality. Most of the time no one uses full formal legal terms in normal conversation.

I don't support AfD, I'm not German either - i just agree with parent poster's observation that for some reason left extremism(and I'm talking actual eco-terrorism for example) is more widely 'accepted' in public space when talking to Germans. Meanwhile mentioning even slightly Right ideas gets you lynched, and any form of discussions stops.

And from small sample size of Germans i know, this is the reason that did push quite few of those people towards AfD.

Frankly AfD is a perfect marker of your own policy making - are more people pushed towards it? you probably are doing something severely wrong as a policymaker.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#313

Post by onli »

angry_octet wrote: post #286
pembrook wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

- All your fellow citizens keep voting for said welfare state/pension system (which is undoubtedly pro-Boomer and has unsustainably low retirement ages and large benefits). - The lack of energy security is because the Red/Greens convinced everywhere except France (go Framatome!) to give up nuclear. I wonder why resource rich Russia would push such an outcome... - Europe needs to spend its savings to get nuclear going…

Nuclear energy is very expensive and does not necessarily provide energy security. You just have to check on the energy usage in France during the summer, when the nuclear power plants had to be shut down repeatedly now. Pushing nuclear power would neither provide reliable nor cheap energy. The route forward is solar, hydro, wind and batteries.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#314

Post by pezezin »

croes wrote: post #134
zaphar wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. So they have a history of attempting to legislate authoritarian rules that restrict civil liberties for citizens?

The tried to prohibit inclusive language

The problem is that most Indo-European languages have grammatical gender, with English being a notable exception. In many cases, trying to fit that inclusive language means contorting or breaking the language grammar in unnatural ways, that's why many people oppose it.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#315

Post by onli »

pembrook wrote: post #280
jdiez17 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the legally accurate description of the AfD [1]. Just like it is legally correct to call Björn Höcke a fascist. [1] https://medienservice.sachsen.de/medien/news/1071656

Yes, now show me the legally accurate description of leftist parties with the opposite political craziness within it. The greens are filled with communists for example. Or the literal communist party, Die Linke. Why are they never referred to as the extreme left.

That's incorrect on every level.

The greens are not filled with communists. They would feel very unwelcome there, given the capitalist move the party did in the 90s.

Die Linke is also not a communist party. It supports capitalism, but targets a social capitalism, like the CDU did in the 50s and the SPD did until the 80s. There are communist parties in Germany, like the MLPD, but they do not get many votes. Background here is that in a divided Germany the communists were not popular in West germany, also most of them got killed by the Nazis before, and on top of that West Germany banned the main communist party already 1956.

Also, rightwing politicians do call "Die Linke" (incorrectly) extreme left, and accordingly the CDU/CSU has a mandate to never cooperate with them.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#316

Post by raxxorraxor »

marenkay wrote: post #237

Stay vigilant. Our German conservatives will repeat the process to restrict our human rights over and over until it slips through the cracks. It's funny how politicians want laws against issues for which they usually are the guilty party.

Not only conservatives. Social democrats now positioned themselves against this, but they only do when convenient. They very much support increased surveillance attempts.

But if you look up past decisions, you will quickly notice that they have very similar ambitions here.

At some point they were against ISP saving connection info, only to switch in the last moment and then fully support and even pushing for it.

Aside from privacy violations, this did not have any positive effect on crime at all. It also showed that the German constitution is more or less a paper tiger.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#317

Post by onli »

pembrook wrote: post #292
jdiez17 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: https://www.bmi.bund.de/DE/themen/sicherheit/extremismus/lin... Feel free to read the chapter „Linksextremismus“. It talks about various violent Antifa groups and other cases. Keep in mind that the definition of „extreme left“ refers to organizations that want to replace the basic democratic system with communism or anarchy (according to the German constitutional court). It does not necessarily include „…

But doesn’t this prove my point. The AfD, like all political parties, is simply a coalition of various smaller subgroups. It’s by no means “extreme” right in entirety. Yet, leftist parties harboring actual communists are not labeled “extreme.”

The AFD is extreme right in its entirely. It's a political party that wants to deport foreigners, remove the german citizenship from people with a migrational background, and it plans to destroy the democratic political parties - which means toppling democracy. They say so clearly and openly, also calling the other parties "Altparteien".

While the party started with a different background, by now voters and members do know about these majority positions and thus support them.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#318

Post by selfmodruntime »

egeozcan wrote: post #238
zahlman wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why AfD would be expected to disagree here. What, just on principle, because it's CDU/CSU?

AfD is classified as extreme-right not only in the eyes of the public, but also by German intelligence. Therefore I'd personally expect them to support potential tools that authoritarian governments would find useful.

> but also by German intelligence

You may it seem like they operate independently. They do not. This determination (while I subjectively agree) came of a report was released by a failed government's acting minister of internal affairs, on her last day of office. I read it myself and even though I don't like it, it's pretty imprecise and does some pretty heavy straw grasping at times.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#319

Post by looping__lui »

indigo945 wrote: post #304
looping__lui wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, CBS News dedicated an entire episode on these “propaganda stories”… https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/policing-speech-online-germ... Germany’s constitution (the Basic Law) does protect freedom of opinion and expression, but it explicitly allows restrictions via “general laws” to protect personal honor, youth, and human dignity. Recent enforcement shows how this plays out…

The OP claimed that people's homes got raided for "daring to insult the ruling class", your source claims that people's homes got raided for posting extremist racist speech online. Unless you believe in some ridiculous conspiracy where ZE JEWS CONTROL ZE BANKS, this has absolutely no relation to your ability to insult the ruling class: Black people and Muslims are not "the ruling class". And if you do believe in such…

I’m just posting what other countries perceive about our way of interpreting and handling hate speech and share context around the legal limitations.

You do you. I have no intention engaging with people on “full kool-aid on whatever bubble they are in”.

Complain to CBS and the Americans.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#320

Post by Voultapher »

snehk wrote: post #263
notrealyme123 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please clarify how people in Germany are unfree and unsecure now. Last time I checked we had free votes and I could say that I hate Merz.

People's homes get raided and their belongings get taken away for daring to insult the ruling class or for making fun of them.

https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2024-11/wirtschaftsm...
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