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They Thought They Were Free (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#311

Post by tobias3 »

lukan wrote: post #71
Foreignborn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just read the book last week. What you said is not true in any useful sense. “Germans were acutely aware…” tries to reduce an entire population and years into one statement. Reality has much more color. For the germans interviewed in the book, it seems to be true that many had read or heard about the camps or other atrocities, but (1) not the “final solution” which was not in the press and (2) there seems to be hea…

Mein Kampf was published 1924 and distributed broadly. There was not much hidden, the goal of making a big war in the east to conquer new land for the Aryans was there in big letters in the open. His views towards jews likewise. So they knew. Maybe largely did not wanted to know. And they did celebrate the victories of the german army as their own. They only stopped celebrating after the victories stopped happening a…

You had to take him seriously but not literally.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#312

Post by DrewADesign »

erikerikson wrote: post #301
ajross wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, there is the 3.5% rule [1]. Second, if 10%-20% of the general population would go on a general strike FWIW, when the best case recommendations for a restoration of civil order and the rule of law involve very large scale society-wide civil disobedience... ...then maybe the comparison to Nazi Germany and authoritative dictatorships more generally are perhaps not as far afield as you're implying. Like, once yo…

> Like, once your thinking goes beyond "just win the next election" things are kinda over as far as "democracy" goes. Elections are not the only form democratic participation can take. We can take local action, coordinated action, talk to our representatives at various levels, and so on.

Your suggestions aren't really addressing the things people are actually worried about here.

If leadership-aligned politicians won't dare step out of line, and those opposed are systematically marginalized by the executive, other legislators, and the courts, then what good does that do? Deliberately neutralizing the opposition's power renders the opposition's ideas, efforts, and proposals useless, and the allied politicians will never disobey, so petitioning either of them to make changes is pointless.

I'm not saying any of that is completely true right now, but people are nervous that this is becoming true.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#313

Post by watwut »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #75
lukan wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mein Kampf was published 1924 and distributed broadly. There was not much hidden, the goal of making a big war in the east to conquer new land for the Aryans was there in big letters in the open. His views towards jews likewise. So they knew. Maybe largely did not wanted to know. And they did celebrate the victories of the german army as their own. They only stopped celebrating after the victories stopped happening a…

Yes. Also, Project 2025 was openly published. Anybody could read it. They aren't hiding the goals. People just don't want to bother with it.

No, they dont mind it or agree with it. They prioritise harm to who they perceive ennemies and projwct 2025 delivers that.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#314

Post by mindslight »

username332211 wrote: post #289
mindslight wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reddit, a whole lot of comments go from Nazi parallels to 'Luigi'. oof. I certainly understand where Luigi came from, but I'd also say that Luigi represents an escalation that empowers the Trump regime. The general population's latent desire to see some "justice" metered out on the "elites" pushes those elites into cozying up to Trump. Because those elites know that if Trump chooses to go after them, even the masse…

I have nagging the suspicion that the knowledge that a good portion of the population wants them dead is a slightly more significant factor in pushing elites to the Republican side compared to the Trump administration's threats.

My point is they're not different factors, they're the same dynamic.

As for your comparison, the actual threat from more Luigis is small. There are at least thousands of CEOs at or above the level of Armstrong? And one death, over a seeming period of several years? And the motive wasn't just "elites bad", but very specific healthcare denials.

Meanwhile Trump is actively attacking many companies and institutions. Part of the pressure are the populist memes that makes the masses unsympathetic to their plights, even though they are the structure of our society.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#315

Post by ProllyInfamous »

watwut wrote: post #303
ProllyInfamous wrote: post #280

This book's cover/spine features swastika — definitely controversial on a bookshelf, but can lead to some aggressive questioning ["why own this?" e.g.]. Unfortunately this detracts from the truths within this book (that National Socialist Ideology is attractive to the majority in a fascist regime change-over; you cannot fault ill-informed "nazi citizens" for their patriotism). Instead of me rambling on about this for…

> I was sitting in a cinema with a Jewish friend and her daughter of thirteen, while a Nazi parade went across the screen, and the girl caught her mother's arm and whispered, `oh, Mother, Mother, if I weren't a Jew, I think I'd be a Nazi!` No one outisde seems to understand how [attractive Nazi ideology] was.' " It pays off to point out that actual Jews and opposition left completely different writings and opinions.…

Correct, the above quotes are from a book which uses German citizens' POVs to explore the dangerous allure of National Socialism to a majority-in-crisis (some using Nazis' own words). A Jew recommended this fantastic book to me [if that matters to you] after he and I had discussed Victor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning.

>"if I weren't a Jew, I think I'd be a Nazi!" —p51, an anti-Nazi German, imprisoned for hiding Jews, quoting a Jewish girl he'd overheard telling her own mother.

Was there a reason you cited that particular quote..?

It's interesting, from that of certain famous Jewish POVs, that both Albert Einstein & Henry Kissenger also lamented similarly, well into their old ages (only being Jewish because of birth into Its customs).

I'd love to have real conversations [which is something this book assists readers with, regardless of "Nazi perspective only" as you somewhat-erroneously proclaim]. This is a book about ending hate.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#316

Post by rixed »

permo-w wrote: post #241
tbrownaw wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It requires there to be meaningful systematic differences between the people who happen to live in different countries.

so what are you suggesting causes, for example, the French to strike more often than other Western countries? or Japan to typically have particularly low inflation? or Argentina to typically have particularly high inflation?

Unless we disagree on the meaning of "national character", isn't that easy to come up with 100 other reasons to explain those economic/political differences?

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#317

Post by rjbwork »

mindslight wrote: post #250
microtonal wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. If you read Reddit, a whole lot of comments go from Nazi parallels (which is partly justified, but as another comment points out there are also a lot of parallels with Orban's Hungary, Erdogan's Turkey, Putin's Russia, etc.) to 'Luigi'. There are so many non-violent approaches that would be effective. First, there is the 3.5% rule [1]. Second, if 10%-20% of the general population would go on a general strike, p…

> Reddit, a whole lot of comments go from Nazi parallels to 'Luigi'. oof. I certainly understand where Luigi came from, but I'd also say that Luigi represents an escalation that empowers the Trump regime. The general population's latent desire to see some "justice" metered out on the "elites" pushes those elites into cozying up to Trump. Because those elites know that if Trump chooses to go after them, even the masse…

This is why people say that "fascism is the failure mode of capitalism." When the rich and powerful get too fat off their structural advantages and society starts coming apart at the seams, capital will align with anti-democratic, anti-freedom, bigoted, and genocidal forces to suppress change rather than relinquish some wealth and power.

They would rather rule over ashes than join us in a little bit more of an equitable society.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#320

Post by estearum »

tbrownaw wrote: post #221
estearum wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A jury felt differently. I suspect the reason you didn’t just describe what he actually did is because you know that it’s different. No need to analogize, we can talk about the specific facts of this case.

You suspect wrong. I did not see an actual screenshot or direct quote of his post, and don't like relying on other people's descriptions of what people they don't like said. What's described is "the party I don't like should vote by text message", which as I said is fundamentally the same as that long-standing known joke.

> For example, on November 1, 2016, in or around the same time that Mackey was sending tweets suggesting the importance of limiting “black turnout,” the defendant tweeted an image depicting an African American woman standing in front of an “African Americans for Hillary” sign. The ad stated: “Avoid the Line. Vote from Home,” “Text ‘Hillary’ to 59925,” and “Vote for Hillary and be a part of history.” The fine print at the bottom of the deceptive image stated: “Must be 18 or older to vote. One vote per person. Must be a legal citizen of the United States. Voting by text not available in Guam, Puerto Rico, Alaska or Hawaii. Paid for by Hillary For President 2016.” The tweet included the typed hashtag “#ImWithHer,” a slogan frequently used by Hillary Clinton. On or about and before Election Day 2016, thousands of unique telephone numbers texted “Hillary” or some derivative to the 59925 text number, which had been used in multiple deceptive campaign images tweeted by Mackey and his co-conspirators.

Anyone can decide for themselves whether this sounds like a "hope my opponents vote on November 6th lmao!"-type post.

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