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Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

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Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#311

Post by justinrubek »

ac29 wrote: post #225
zackmorris wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only known a "good" economy from about 1995-1999 when the internet went mainstream and for the briefest of moments, we got a taste of what public investment in tech feels like. The powers that be quickly saw the danger in that and IMHO orchestrated the Dot Bomb, 9/11, the Housing Bubble, etc to keep as much money as possible out of public hands so that the average person wouldn't have the means to participate in…

> Vanguard is now cannibalizing US real estate rather than making venture capital available to small businesses and startups in its insatiable hunger for profit. I'm not sure you understand what Vanguard does. They are not an investment bank nor a VC firm. They run mutual funds and ETFs, so the assets that "Vanguard" owns are owned by the fund holders (in fact in the case of Vanguard, the fund holders also own Vangua…

It doesn't seem like this is strictly a contradiction. It could easily be smoke and mirrors if the end result is the same.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#312

Post by alphawhisky »

thesmtsolver wrote: post #290
rurp wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is undercut by the vastly lower effective tax rates rich Americans pay vs middle class workers. It's the norm in this country for someone making millions of dollars/year to pay a significantly lower tax rate on that income than anyone working a decent paying job. A horseshoe shaped tax graph by income is clearly against the intent and spirit of a progressive tax code so something is very much broken and ha…

But your point is undercut by the fact the vast majority of middle class workers do invest and benefit from long term capital gains taxes. Around 40% of stocks are in retirement accounts.

Around 50% of the entire market cap of the NASDAQ is owned by the top 1%. Tax it.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#313

Post by [deleted] »

duxup wrote: post #249
jparishy wrote: post #66

Wealth inequality is high. High enough you can feel it like a vibe in the air. The richest people in the world are telling everyone to get onboard with technology that is determined to make a lot of those same people's jobs redundant. All with an explicit goal of increasing the price of stock most of those people do not own. IMO there's two economies, maybe divided by those who participate in the stock market and tho…

I guess, but ... people then vote to give those rich folks power. I don't doubt there are vast differences in opportunity and even rights at this point, but I don't think that's how people see it. Not if they're trying to get more of those folks in power.

[deleted]

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#314

Post by nonethewiser »

coliveira wrote: post #277
nonethewiser wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scarce yes. Static, no.

If it's not static and it grows, then it cannot be scarce, unless you have a group that is always taking more of existing resources.

>If it's not static and it grows, then it cannot be scarce

Elaborate? Scarcity means demand for the resources exceeds the available supply. There is essentially unlimited human wants and only finite resources. The resource quantity can grow but it will never meet demand. Even if all growth goes to the people with less resources, the resources will still be scarce.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#315

Post by nonethewiser »

coliveira wrote: post #256
nonethewiser wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK so its not only about luck and existing capital. >Moreover, a "self-made billionaire" is just a drop on the global pool of wealth. We are not talking about the global pool of wealth - we are talking about capitalism which is decidedly smaller. You can take out Putin, Saudi Aramco, etc.

> we are talking about capitalism which is decidedly smaller not true. The size of the capitalist US economy dwarfs Saudi Arabia and Russia combined.

That just proves my point harder. Because despite having the smaller, non-capitalist economy, Putin is likely richer than the richest US capitalist.

In any case, you should be able to see how its not only about luck and existing capital.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#316

Post by tripletpeaks »

Jotra7 wrote: post #103
exabrial wrote: post #78

It used to be true, but now you are taxed out of success, and any other gains you save will simply evaporate with unchecked inflation and money printing by Congress. There needs to be a "Hard Stop" on inflation: The federal government's checks bounce if there is no money in the account. ... and somehow, there has been a successful miseducation campaign on the internet that "corporations raising prices causes inflatio…

[flagged]

The current situation is largely their fault. It was Chicago school jackasses who neutered antitrust enforcement in the '70s, which is why everything's now dominated by a very small number of mega-conglomerates.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#317

Post by Buttons840 »

j_w wrote: post #309
Buttons840 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make some good points. I guess a "living wage" probably implies living an "normal" American life, which isn't maximally tightening the belt. Even with good public transportation, driving saves a lot of time. The extra $300 probably comes from a combination of needing to buy a new phone and new computer periodically, hidden taxes and fees, and also it's reasonable to expect a "normal" living wage to include enough…

The problem is that the "normal" American consumes greatly beyond their means. What I described isn't maximally tightening the belt, it's a very reasonable and satisfying way to live. I don't have a car, I ride a bike, walk, or take public transit. In no way do I feel restricted in my daily life. I have a 6 year old iPhone that if you amortize would be $100/year (well under that extra 300). A lot of Americans would c…

What about needing a laptop for the internet? There's $1000, and you need to upgrade every couple years. I spent $2000 to build a desktop myself 10 years ago; it still works well enough, it plays the games I like, but Windows wont support it anymore, it's end of life; there's $200 a year.

Again, "living" implies a little wiggle room and having access to more than just the one cheapest bottom-of-the-barrel option.

What if you lose your phone? You'll have to buy another. Can we include that potential expense in the budget? A "living" wage implies you're not set back for years because you lost one item.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#318

Post by paulpauper »

John23832 wrote: post #206
paulpauper wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're smart or lucky enough to to land that 6-figure job, then times are pretty good. There are tons of stories on subreddits, e.g. r/FIRE, r/investing, r/fatfire, etc., of people with large nest eggs and home ownership at an early age. But those are outliers. There are many opportunities to get rich if you are lucky and or smart enough to land them, like in tech or finance. But this is not much consolation for t…

I think that also assumes that you're able to use that entire 6 figures for yourself. And that you're able to save in these HCOL places that the 6 figures are made. And/or that you're married. Many of the people that I know in that 6 figure range (the "normal" 100-300ish range) are helping others. Family and the like. It's also 3-4k for an apartment in many of the HCOL places. That's before food, transportation, and…

Many of them are not married, and even then the wife works, and they have tons of savings anyway .

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#319

Post by j_w »

Buttons840 wrote: post #317
j_w wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the "normal" American consumes greatly beyond their means. What I described isn't maximally tightening the belt, it's a very reasonable and satisfying way to live. I don't have a car, I ride a bike, walk, or take public transit. In no way do I feel restricted in my daily life. I have a 6 year old iPhone that if you amortize would be $100/year (well under that extra 300). A lot of Americans would c…

What about needing a laptop for the internet? There's $1000, and you need to upgrade every couple years. I spent $2000 to build a desktop myself 10 years ago; it still works well enough, it plays the games I like, but Windows wont support it anymore, it's end of life; there's $200 a year. Again, "living" implies a little wiggle room and having access to more than just the one cheapest bottom-of-the-barrel option. Wha…

The living wage calculation on that website does not constitute your last paragraph. I'd argue that not including a savings/retirement investment portion makes it a much worse number.

As for a computer, your desktop will work fine with Linux. A laptop doesn't need to cost 1000, again we are over consuming. If your hobby requires a computer, that would be from recreational expenses, not required technology spending.

Living has lots of wiggle room, but it starts with understanding what you actually NEED vs what you think you need, then wiggling from there. If you start with inflated base monthly expenses your true requirements become obscured.

I'm privileged. I don't actually know what a healthy retirement savings rate is because I'm certainly well above that in my own savings. But part of why I'm well above that is because I truly cut down on a lot of unneeded spending that I see many of my peers doing.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#320

Post by sdenton4 »

closewith wrote: post #137
sdenton4 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much all of the good stuff I've done in my life have resulted from going off the beaten path. AP courses and SAT scores are the core of the beaten path, so everyone is competing for the same stuff. But the world is big, actually, and there's incredible opportunities for meaningful work once you start looking around more broadly. These sorts of jobs aren't necessarily "stable" employment, but I've never once fe…

Your CV indicates you graduated in 2006, so effectively into a different world. You should consider carefully how the world has changed for young people entering the workforce before dispensing advice, because they find themselves in a very different landscape to you and advice like "Plugging in and helping people solve their concrete problems is IMHO the best way to get started" is trite and frankly insulting.

Sorry you feel insulted.

Lemme try to put it another way, because I am suggesting a different way to think about the idea of work, which /also/ was not the dominant way of thinking about things when I was a student. The notion that you go get credentials in order to get a job standing in a spot and doing a thing and get paid is... perhaps fine, for the trades. But, as I mentioned above, the beaten path is saturated, and you will find yourself in what is essentially a lottery system. (Perhaps most of what has changed since 2006 is that the odds of the lottery have gotten worse...)

Alternatively, you can think of yourself as a problem-solver for hire. You might be more or less specialized as a problem solver, but ultimately, you're asking someone to pay you money in exchange for regularly engaging in creative problem solving to make their business/NGO/whatever run better. Plenty of people come out of school or whatever and have no problem solving ability. And some people create more problems than they solve.

How do you prove that you're worth hiring then? With a portfolio of problems that you have successfully solved. How do you get that portfolio? By plugging into some area you're interested in and solving people's concrete problems.

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