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A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

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Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#311

Post by whatevaa »

whism wrote: post #238
susam wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never understood math / latex display via client side js. Why can't this be precomputed into html and css? It can be. But like I mentioned earlier, my personal website is a hobby project I've been running since my university days. It's built with Common Lisp (CL), which is part of the fun for me. It's not just about the end result, but also about enjoying the process. While precomputing HTML and CSS is definitely…

Perhaps you could stand up a small service on another host using headless chrome or similar to render, and fall back to client side if the service is down and you don’t already have the pre rendered result stored somewhere. I suggest this only because you mentioned not wanting to pollute your current server environment, and I enjoy seeing these kind of optimizations done :^)

What you are suggesting is adding massive complexity.

Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#312

Post by whatevaa »

mousethatroared wrote: post #270
filleduchaos wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Text, yes. Graphics? SVGs are not as small as people think especially if they're any more complex than basic shapes, and there are plenty of things that simply cannot be represented as vector graphics anyway. It's fair to prefer text-only pages, but the "and graphics" is quite unrealistic in my opinion.

By vector graphics I meant primitive graphics. Outside of youtube and... twitter? I really don't need fancy stuff. HN is literally the web ideal for me, and Id think most users if given an option.

No, you think wrong. Most users like fancier stuff than HN, including me.

Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#313

Post by AStonesThrow »

jeroenhd wrote: post #169
aziaziazi wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good to know, however "when the keys are know" refers to a second visit (or request) of the site right ? That isn’t helpful for the first data paquets - at least that what I understand from the site.

Without cached data from a previous visit, 1-RTT mode works even if you've never vistited the site before ( https://blog.cloudflare.com/rfc-8446-aka-tls-1-3/#1-rtt-mode ). It can fall back to 2-RTT if something funky happens, but that shouldn't happen in most cases. 0-RTT works after the first handshake, but enabling it allows for some forms of replay attacks so that may not be something you want to use for anything…

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Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#314

Post by popalchemist »

hmmokidk wrote: post #309
popalchemist wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to discourage you from adopting better solutions, but the delayed client-side rendering of a dynamic component like a Latex expression is almost (or sometimes literally) imperceptible to the averge user. There is such a thing as over-optimization. All this SEO-driven performance chasing is really only worthwhile if the thing you're building is getting click-through-traffic in the millions of views. It's a…

Humans aren’t robots. If it’s interesting, fun and inspiration comes freely then it often makes sense to pursue. Even to only have something to talk about, to learn, to teach.

Yes obviously there are still reasons to do something like this even if its an inefficient use of time/resources... See the first line of my comment.

Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#315

Post by tonymet »

zigzag312 wrote: post #302
tonymet wrote: post #273

Software developer’s should be more aware of the media layer . I appreciate the author’s post about 3g /5g reliability and latency. Radio almost always retries, and with most HTTP your packets need to arrive in order. A single REST request is only truly a single packet if the request and response are both For practical experiments, try chrome dev tools in 3g mode with some packet loss and you can see even “small” opt…

I agree. There's some good information in the article, but 14kb web page is a poor example. API requests would be a better example.

It’s extreme. But you can still apply to UI. Getting initial paint elements under 14k is good. Eg index.html with the css needed to draw .

Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#316

Post by ajsnigrutin »

timeon wrote: post #303
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but beef tastes good. I mean.. there are better ways to eat beef than mixed with soy at mcdonalds, but still... What benefit does an individual get from downloading tens of megabytes of useless data to get ~5kB of useful data in an article? It wastes download time, bandwidth, users time (having to close the autoplaying ad), power/battery, etc.

> but beef tastes good One could say the same for js libraries, Tailwind and shiny imaged on the web. Beans also taste good, so does minimal web page.

So you're saying because people like diverse and good tasting food, that includes meats, that we can waste bandiwdth and energy or crappy websites? Yes, beans taste good, especially baked with barbecued meats... people want that, buy that, order that, pay that. People also want 5kB of news, they don't need or want the crap that comes with it, autplaying ads included.

Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#317

Post by AStonesThrow »

crawshaw wrote: post #20

If you want to have fun with this: the initial window (IW) is determined by the sender. So you can configure your server to the right number of packets for your website. It would look something like: ip route change default via dev initcwnd 20 initrwnd 20 A web search suggests CDNs are now at 30 packets for the initial window, so you get 45kb there.

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Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#318

Post by DrScientist »

jeroenhd wrote: post #157
9dev wrote: post #7

The overlap of people that don’t know what TCP Slow Start is and those that should care about their website loading a few milliseconds faster is incredibly small. A startup should focus on, well, starting up, not performance; a corporation large enough to optimise speed on that level will have a team of experienced SREs that know over which detail to obsess.

When your approach is "I don't care because I have more important things to focus on", you never care. There's always something you can do that's more important to a company than optimising the page load to align with the TCP window size used to access your server. This is why almost all applications and websites are slow and terrible these days.

Indeed.

To add to this, bloated performance is often 'death by a 1000 cuts' - ie there isn't just one thing that makes it slow, but it's the cumulative combination of many individual choices - where each choice doesn't incrementally make that much difference, but the cumulative effect does.

ie if you have 100 code changes, each one adding 'just' a 10 millis - suddenly you are a second slower - and yet fixing any one problem has a minimal effect.

Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#319

Post by hiAndrewQuinn »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #316
timeon wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but beef tastes good One could say the same for js libraries, Tailwind and shiny imaged on the web. Beans also taste good, so does minimal web page.

So you're saying because people like diverse and good tasting food, that includes meats, that we can waste bandiwdth and energy or crappy websites? Yes, beans taste good, especially baked with barbecued meats... people want that, buy that, order that, pay that. People also want 5kB of news, they don't need or want the crap that comes with it, autplaying ads included.

Citation needed, it seems you haven't actually considered there are people on the other side of the coin here. I love the crap that comes with it, and that is not a joke or an exaggeration. I probably love it more than the beef you're eating which takes about an order of magnitude more energy to produce than the grass the beef ate did. To me it's a lovely, lovely way to spend energy.

I love advertising in particular. Advertisers are welcome to every megabyte they can get their hands on when it comes to optimizing for the Vickrey auction deathmatch that decides in the blink of an eye what I'm most likely to spend my money on, if only I knew it actually existed. I am unfortunately both a very picky consumer, and way too lazy painstakingly research everything on the market. I'm actually extremely grateful those 5/50/500 megabytes can go towards something actually useful like trying to figure out what I would like to buy rather than... Whatever else they would be used for, I guess. Project Gutenberg archive torrent seeding or whatever.

Re: A 14kb page can load much faster than a 15kb page (2022)

#320

Post by Capricorn2481 »

Alifatisk wrote: post #109
apt-apt-apt-apt wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the fact that news.ycombinator.com loads instantly pleases my brain so much I flick it open during downtime automonkey-ly

Lobsters, Dlangs forum and HN is one of the few places I know that loads instantly, I love it. This is how it should be like!

Although Lobsters is 4x the size and loads about as well.
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