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Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#311

Post by izacus »

llm_nerd wrote: post #123
izacus wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's a fairly obvious truth. Chrome has a 70% browser marketshare, with the only appreciable alternative being Safari. If Chrome (the actual Chrome and not just a skinned Safari) were allowed on Apple's platforms, overnight a crapload of websites would throw a "Made for Chrome" banner up, dismiss anyone on "unsupported" browsers, and we would rapidly move to a Chrome-only world. We already went through this in the IE…

There's nothing obvious about it.

You're literally defending a megacorporations monopoly and abuse of users so they can continue denying free choice to people using phones.

You're literally saying that the browser the users are right now forced to used by a megacorporation is so bad, they would refuse to use it in the future. And then you double down on the bootlicking by demanding that they continue forcing the use of their supposedly inferior product.

(After all, if the product is actually good, why would people switch?)

And with that you're entrenching megabillionare interests and outright banning creation of opensource.

Be better.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#312

Post by vladvasiliu »

SpikedCola wrote: post #204
pxeger1 wrote: post #113

Relatedly, all Google apps (e.g. Maps) on iOS try very hard to push Chrome on you (even though iOS Chrome still has to use WebKit). When you click an external link, they present you the options of Chrome, Google (the search app), or Safari. This happens even if you don't have Chrome/Google installed, so they take you to the App Store instead of opening the webpage. If you choose Safari, it still doesn't open Safari,…

In the same way, Apple is equally difficult about forcing the use of Apple Maps. If you receive an address in an iMessage, clicking/long-holding will always open in Apple Maps. There is no way to share to Google Maps (it doesn't appear in the list), and the default setting to use Google Maps doesn't affect iMessage. You have to copy the address, switch to Google Maps, paste it in, and search. I would much prefer clic…

That's not what I observe, it opens in the "default app" for "navigation". I've just tried this on my iPhone, running iOS 18.5.

If I click on an address received via iMessage, it will open the "default app for navigation". If I long press it, the context menu will say "get directions" which opens the "default app", open in "google maps" if it's set as the default app. There's no option to open it in Apple Maps. If the "default app for navigation" is Apple Maps, everything I said above changes to Apple Maps.

If I click "share", Google Maps doesn't show up in the list, but neither does Apple Maps.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#313

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

thisislife2 wrote: post #265
bilbo0s wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. That particular one is definitely a case of “not today Satan”. I do wish there was a non-privacy invading maps app outside of Apple though.

Check out Organic Maps - https://organicmaps.app/ - it runs on OpenStreetMaps, is privacy focused (no data collection, no ads, no tracking), is open source, runs offline, is multi-platform and even supports old ios versions (which none of the other popular Maps app do). (Old HN discussion - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37347447 )

Thanks. Will check it out... as far as I know, no one's died being lost in the Australian desert with it, so it's got that going for it.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#314

Post by Rexxar »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #164
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hear me out, I have a tinfoil hat theory. What if, those requirements weren't put to help small shops making a new browser, but to guarantee the big shops who already have a browser are getting fined? * hits bong *

And this is why the EU's GDP versus the US is now only 65% and shrinking. The regulations are about beating US companies into compliance, sometimes with righteous motives; but there's no forethought on how a domestic EU startup might be able to comply, or how a startup would convince investors to take the gamble.

> US is now only 65% and shrinking.

It's a fake news that just don't take into account on currency value change (euro has lost some value between 2019 and 2024). But if you look really want to look at it this way, I have a bad news for new: USA has shrink 15% since January compared to Europe as EUR go from 1$ to 1.15$.

If we look at GDP at purchasing power parity from 2007 to 2023 we have this:

- European Union: 31,162 => 61,217, +96% (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locat...)

- USA: 48,050 => 82,769, +72% (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locat...)

Which shows a slight catching-up by the European Union over the period.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#315

Post by Rexxar »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #182
hshdhdhj4444 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because EU software companies were totally destroying the American software industry before the last decade… The EU’s relatively shrinking GDP has much more to do with their populations growing older and their population size stabilizing, and the relatively tiny amount of migration, than EU digital laws, most of which have been replicated throughout the world. Additionally, the EU has always had weak financial…

That's not necessarily true; as the EU had many major players, especially historically: SUSE, Ericsson, Nokia, SAP; all were or are being shredded by US competition despite a domestically entrenched position. Even in 2008, when both economies did badly, the EU and the US had nearly identical GDP figures. The EU might point to ASML as a point of pride; but that assumes an ASML competitor wouldn't get tens of billions…

2008 was a point where euro was overvalued compared to dollar at 1.60$ after the subprime crises. It's not a significant number.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#316

Post by isomorphic »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #243
danbruc wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are not generally used to this in our field but just think about the amount of paperwork you have to go through in order to construct a bridge or an airplane. Browsers have become a critical component and it seem not really unexpected that there will eventually be legal requirements to help to ensure that browsers are safe given the amount of software that runs on top of browsers. And this is also not new, there h…

How will regulations on browsers make us safer though?

Right. Define "safe."

Personally I consider Chrome to be one of the least-safe browsers available, because it sends my data to Google. Also it perpetuates a monoculture. However, others may define "safe" differently, excluding such considerations.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#317

Post by robocat »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #312
SpikedCola wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way, Apple is equally difficult about forcing the use of Apple Maps. If you receive an address in an iMessage, clicking/long-holding will always open in Apple Maps. There is no way to share to Google Maps (it doesn't appear in the list), and the default setting to use Google Maps doesn't affect iMessage. You have to copy the address, switch to Google Maps, paste it in, and search. I would much prefer clic…

That's not what I observe, it opens in the "default app" for "navigation". I've just tried this on my iPhone, running iOS 18.5. If I click on an address received via iMessage, it will open the "default app for navigation". If I long press it, the context menu will say "get directions" which opens the "default app", open in "google maps" if it's set as the default app. There's no option to open it in Apple Maps. If th…

> default app" for "navigation". > iOS 18.5.

Where is that setting?

Settings | Apps | Default Apps has no option for Navigation (iPhone SE 18.5, in New Zealand). Maybe EU thing?

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#318

Post by dmitrygr »

danbruc wrote: post #212
stockresearcher wrote: post #103

Even if you get past the roadblocks Apple has put in place, it’s not beer and skittles for browser makers in the EU. The CRA, which is now in effect, lists browsers as class I important products. Technical documentation, design documentation, user documentation, security conformance testing, a declared support period at the time of download, software bill of materials, the legal obligation to respond to and make all…

We are not generally used to this in our field but just think about the amount of paperwork you have to go through in order to construct a bridge or an airplane. Browsers have become a critical component and it seem not really unexpected that there will eventually be legal requirements to help to ensure that browsers are safe given the amount of software that runs on top of browsers. And this is also not new, there h…

Are you seriously suggesting that becoming more regulated like bridge/building builders is GOOD for software?

You sure you are ready to freeze all innovation forever? Cause there is a well documented inverse relationship between regulation and innovation. (Small teams cannot afford compliance officers and other such dross. Big ones do move fast, and, without competition from the smells, do not need to)

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#319

Post by freedomben »

kevincox wrote: post #295
lemoncucumber wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thus far Apple Maps doesn't have ads. There are rumors they may ad them (pun intended), but I don't think their motivations for steering people towards Apple Maps are primarily monetary.

I think they are. Maybe not directly as you point out but there are lots of indirect reasons that don't seem that far fetched. 1. Using Apple Maps makes the switching cost to other devices (that don't have Apple Maps) higher. 2. Having more users makes any future monetization more valuable. I understand that there doesn't yet appear to be any direct monetization but I very much expect to see it at some point. 3. Remo…

Also having that sweet sweet user data, and simultaneously depriving your competitor of it

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#320

Post by moogly »

pxeger1 wrote: post #113

Relatedly, all Google apps (e.g. Maps) on iOS try very hard to push Chrome on you (even though iOS Chrome still has to use WebKit). When you click an external link, they present you the options of Chrome, Google (the search app), or Safari. This happens even if you don't have Chrome/Google installed, so they take you to the App Store instead of opening the webpage. If you choose Safari, it still doesn't open Safari,…

Unrelatedly, I would say.
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